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May 27th, 2014
01:48 PM ET

Sudanese woman sentenced to death for her Christianity gives birth in prison

By Faith Karimi and Mohammed Osman, CNN

(CNN) - A Sudanese woman sentenced to die for refusing to renounce her Christianity has given birth to a girl in prison, her lawyers said Tuesday.

Meriam Yehya Ibrahim, 27, delivered her baby Monday at a women's prison in Khartoum, but her husband was not allowed to be present for the birth, sources told CNN. They asked not to be named for safety reasons.

Ibrahim was convicted of apostasy, or the renunciation of faith, about two weeks ago while she was eight months pregnant.

A Sudanese lawyer filed an appeal last week to reverse the verdict by the lower court.

She is in prison with her 20-month-old son, but Sudanese officials have said the toddler is free to leave any time, according to her lawyer, Mohamed Jar Elnabi.

Her husband, Daniel Wani, is a U.S. citizen who uses a wheelchair and "totally depends on her for all details of his life," her lawyer said.

FULL STORY
- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Africa • Christianity • Church and state • Courts • Islam • Islamic law • Sharia

soundoff (200 Responses)
  1. Sheik Yerbouti

    Things I hate:

    1. Flabby people who wear tight fitting clothes.
    2. People who don’t use their turn indicators.
    3. People who write checks at the grocery store.
    4. People who kill women for their Christianity.

    May 28, 2014 at 12:33 pm |
  2. I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

    And in other news:

    Pregnant Pakistani woman stoned to death by her family members

    Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) - A pregnant woman is beaten to death by her relatives outside a court building. Her crime? To elope with the man she loved rather than marry the groom chosen by her family.
    ...
    One family member made a noose of rough cloth around her neck while her brothers smashed bricks into her skull, said Mushtaq Ahmed, a police official, citing the preliminary report into the killing. She was three months pregnant, he said.

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/28/world/asia/pakistan-pregnant-woman-killed/index.html

    May 28, 2014 at 11:07 am |
    • Reality

      Already noted below after the review of treatment of women via the dictates of the Koran. Time that the UN bans said book.

      May 28, 2014 at 12:28 pm |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        This was not an execution based on Sharia or Islamic law in Pakistan. This was outside the legal system and was a tribal 'honor' killing. However, it won't likely be prosecuted:

        "Under an Islamic element of Pakistani law, known as the law of Diyat, the family of a victim is allowed to forgive the perpetrator, according to the human rights commission's report."

        May 28, 2014 at 1:24 pm |
        • Reality

          I was going to suggest that the UN ban Islam and all of its archaic rituals. More on stoning in Islam can be found at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/001-adultery_punishment.htm. And since many Muslim practices are taken from the OT (the irony of it all), banning the OT and Judaism also would be a great idea.

          May 28, 2014 at 2:42 pm |
  3. James XCIX

    Anyone else having trouble with the WordPress links to "view thread" or "your comment" not working? Sometimes they work, but often they just take me to the newest page of comments to the related story despite my thread being on an older page.

    May 28, 2014 at 9:54 am |
    • Vic

      That has been happening for a long time now. It seems like there is a software overflow problem when the page reaches its limit—presumably dynamic.

      Whenever you encounter that, just change the page number in "comment-page-xx" in the address bar in your browser and without changing anything else, then hit "enter." Then it would go to your comment you just posted. Sometimes you need to go several pages back with that manual fix till you get the right page, depending on how far the software overshot the pages.

      May 28, 2014 at 11:19 am |
    • LinCA

      There seem to be two counters that get out of sync when comments are deleted by moderators. There appears to be a difference in the calculation of which page a comment shows up on depending on where the link is generated.

      A new comment seems to get the page number of the total (before deletions) divided by the number of comments per page. This is the page your browser will try go to once you post and it is displayed in the "recent posts" section. The actual link is generated by dividing the remaining comments by the number of comments per page. I suspect one link comes from WordPress and the other from CNN.

      May 28, 2014 at 11:30 am |
      • Vic

        That's a good assessment.

        Also, without being technical, since I believe this structure involves Dynamic Memory Allocation, the problem still exists without deletions, since I believe a page limit is a combination of root comments & nested replies, which both vary necessarily in totals.

        May 28, 2014 at 12:19 pm |
      • Vic

        For technical integrity, I just viewed four different random full comment pages from three different Blog posts spread apart by time, and they all have 20 root comments, regardless of the number of nested replies. Which means each comment page is actually bound by the number of root comments, that is 20.

        Therefore, your deletion explanation for the mismatch would be correct.

        I would also add that comments that are blocked by the word filter are retained on the Blog's server, since a duplicate message pops up when retried, which means it could also cause the totals mismatch problem, in the opposite direction of deletion, however.

        I believe this is a viewing flaw, an indexing problem, since in theory, all root comments are objects—as in Object-Oriented Programming—chronologically placed in an array of objects—hence Dynamic Memory Allocation, each with a serial number—comment number, and embedded within them all their replies.

        May 28, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
    • James XCIX

      OK, thanks for the replies. Just making sure it wasn't only a problem for me.

      May 28, 2014 at 3:45 pm |
  4. magsmagenta

    Reblogged this on Magsmagentas Blog.

    May 28, 2014 at 9:15 am |
  5. Reality

    Global Muslims must rise up against this Sudanese horror but they will not since they are guided by the idiocy of Islam. It is not just Christian women that are at risk but all women.

    To wit:

    o Islam gives women almost no rights and treats them like fodder for the male species as so bluntly noted by Aya-an Hi-rsi Ali in her autobiography, In-fidel.

    "Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circu-mcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hi-rsi Ali escaped – and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

    ref: Washington Post book review.

    some excerpts:

    "Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly be-aten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their scre-ams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

    "The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had cas-tes. The Untou-chable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were unt-ouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were tou-chable: we to-uched them see? but also hor-rifying to think of yourself as un-touchable, des-picable to the human race."

    "Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were ki-lled by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exa-ggerating."

    "The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Som-alia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feu-dal mind-set based on tr-ibal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hypro-cricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

    More on the treatment of females in Islam:

    Islam’s widespread practice of amputating the cli-to-ris and sometimes part or even all of the vul-va from the ge-n-ita-lia of Muslim women, affirmed in a had-ith by Mohammed himself, most likely also traces back to the founder’s deliberate abuse of se-x to lure pagan males into his cu-lt. The more the male s-ex drive is purposefully aro-used, the more the female s-ex urge may have to be proportionately suppressed, lest org-iastic he-ll begin to spread.

    Consider then what frequently happens when even a modestly clothed young Western woman walks alone in broad daylight down a street in, for example, a non-Westernized area of a city in Pakistan. Muslim men around her can see her face, hair and neck—maybe even her ankles. Some of them perceive that much exposure as intent on her part to a-rouse them. The fact that she is not accompanied by a male relative confirms their susp-icions. Knowing that she, a Western woman, has not been subjected to that cruel amputation which Islam forces upon millions of Muslim women, some males may even imagine that she must feel s-exual desire for them.

    They tend also to perceive themselves as not responsible to exercise decent social restraint. Rather she is responsible not to tempt them! Whatever lewd thing Muslim men around her say, do or feel as a result is regarded as her fault alone. . . .
    During a major upheaval in Indonesia in the late 1990s, s-ex-crazed Muslim men gang-ra-ped dozens of Chinese women in shops, homes and even in the streets, shouting in Arabic, “Allahu Akbar!” (God is great!)*

    *http://www.colorq.org/humanrights/Indonesia/Jakarta.htm

    May 28, 2014 at 12:38 am |
    • Reality

      As we noted, the terror and horror of Islam are not restricted to the Sudan:

      "Pregnant Pakistani woman stoned to death by her family members"

      CNN

      Wed May 28, 2014

      May 28, 2014 at 7:46 am |
  6. Vic

    ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰

    This is the time to ramp up the International effort along with the proposed U.S. Senate Resolution to free up Merriam Ibrahim.

    Previously:
    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/20/will-sudan-really-execute-a-pregnant-christian-woman/comment-page-2/#comment-3014064

    p.s. In other shocking news:
    http://news.yahoo.com/pregnant-pakistani-woman-stoned-death-family-163143284.html

    May 27, 2014 at 5:43 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      @Vic,

      if you really want to do something pragmatic to help, send money to Amnesty International to help pay for her lawyers.

      There is an automatic emailer to contact a variety of Sudanese officials on the Amnesty International website.
      http://www.amnestyusa.org/

      May 27, 2014 at 5:51 pm |
      • thefinisher1

        Christian, Muslim, atheist. She made her own bed. No one ask me to have her born there.

        May 27, 2014 at 5:54 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          You really are an ass. No compassion for her at all especially when she has done nothing wrong....you're a disgusting immoral loser!

          May 28, 2014 at 7:16 am |
      • Vic

        That's a good avenue.

        Another effective way would be to talk to your Congressman/women regarding the matter.

        May 27, 2014 at 6:39 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      ♰♰♰ Jebus is Lard ♰♰♰

      I thought all you had to do is "ask, and it will be given you". So praying won't work then ?

      May 27, 2014 at 9:17 pm |
  7. thefinisher1

    I don’t care what anyone thinks of me or anything else, as long as it doesn’t cramp my style then live and let live. I will do the same and we can all live in peace and harmony. Only the atheists will continue to fool themselves into thinking they are smarter than the rest of us and shove their religion in our faces.

    May 27, 2014 at 5:40 pm |
    • thefinisher1

      Maybe you should start caring. The holy atheists think they are smarter than me but it is an illogical lie. You will never have any morals because your atheist religion rejects goodness.

      May 27, 2014 at 5:48 pm |
      • realbuckyball

        Talking to your self again ? Let's see the studies that prove atheists have no values ?
        95 % of the US prison population claims to be Christian.
        Oops.

        May 27, 2014 at 9:20 pm |
      • In Santa We Trust

        finished, Based upon your posts, you don't seem to know what atheism is, what logic is, or what morals are. Unfortunately you do seem well acquainted with lies.

        May 27, 2014 at 9:27 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Unfortunately for you, (you who never supports ANYTHING you say with ANY evidence), there is evidence YOU are lying.
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/religious-people-are-less-intelligent-than-atheists-according-to-analysis-of-scores-of-scientific-studies-stretching-back-over-decades-8758046.html

      May 27, 2014 at 9:45 pm |
  8. His Panic

    A very stressful situation indeed. I would not blame anyone for being in a state of anxiety and fear. However if she really Trust in God and in Jesus Christ God's Only Son she WILL NOT Panic all other will.

    May 27, 2014 at 5:33 pm |
    • thefinisher1

      You see? I haven't left. This blog enjoys my counterpoint too much for me to leave them high and dry kid.

      May 27, 2014 at 5:36 pm |
      • thefinisher1

        I did not mean that as a reply to His Panic. I was trying to reply to my number one fan!

        May 27, 2014 at 5:38 pm |
        • James XCIX

          That would appear to be you.

          May 27, 2014 at 5:39 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          Awwwww, I am sorry James, are you butt hurt that your atheism is a crazy lie?

          May 27, 2014 at 5:42 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          finished. If atheism is a crazy lie, then you'll have objective evidence of your god to substantiate that claim which you should share.

          May 27, 2014 at 5:56 pm |
  9. thefinisher1

    Radical atheists must have very strong faith. I don't care what their faith "tells them to do". If they honestly don’t care that much about other animals living among them who share a different meal, they must have a strong weak faith. That goes for anyone including christians. There's over a billion Muslims...convert or cut off your fingers? Radials kill more of their own pets than non-Muslims!

    May 27, 2014 at 5:27 pm |
    • thefinisher1

      Lol! Your attempts to make me stop has failed. Bashing your own atheism isn't healthy when you're an atheist....are you stupid or do you have something mentally wrong with you?

      May 27, 2014 at 5:28 pm |
      • thefinisher1

        That is the second time you have posted that genius. No one buys into your trolling and name-jacking kid!

        May 27, 2014 at 5:30 pm |
    • thefinisher1

      Lol. I don't understand how this will "make me leave". People already know you're the fake finisher. Your attempts have failed. You're making my sides hurt.

      May 27, 2014 at 5:30 pm |
      • thefinisher1

        Nice effort at reverse psychology name stealer.

        May 27, 2014 at 5:33 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Radials kill pets ? My tires never killed anything.

      May 27, 2014 at 9:22 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      And what exactly is WRONG with "strong faith" ? If it's good for you, is it not good for everyone ? So it's ONLY good, if they AGREE with yours ? Not very democratic are you ? So it's ok for you, but NOT ok for others ? Or just what ARE you saying here ?

      May 27, 2014 at 9:48 pm |
  10. thefinisher1

    Killers love killing...nothing they can’t claim justifies nothing. Only idiot like athiest believe every word (the justifications) that comes out of their pie holes. Why do believe them? It gives you some tasty twisted feeling that you will use as a pillow. Pathetic.

    May 27, 2014 at 5:24 pm |
    • thefinisher1

      Lol. I don't understand how this will "make me leave". People already know you're the fake finisher. Your attempts have failed. You're making my sides hurt.

      May 27, 2014 at 5:31 pm |
  11. I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

    It's not material to the shocking nature of a death sentence for apostasy, but how many handicapped US citizens live in Sudan?

    "Her husband, Daniel Wani, is a U.S. citizen who uses a wheelchair and "totally depends on her for all details of his life," her lawyer said."

    is there more to this story that is not being reported that might indicate why they have singled out this woman?

    May 27, 2014 at 5:18 pm |
    • Akira

      I think her money has a lot to do with it.
      She is quite wealthy in the Sudan, and her brother is the one that brought the charges against her.
      She owns shopping malls and businesses.
      Who inherits?
      (Her husband fled the Sudan during their civil war. I assume he is also a Sudanese citizen. He is, however, Christian. I don't know the laws concerning inheritance in Sudan, or what may be enforced since they ignored their own Consti.tution in convicting her.)

      May 27, 2014 at 5:35 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      After a little digging apparently he is an engineer and fled South Sudan to come to the US with his brother in 1998. He became a US citizen in 2005 has a degree in biochemical engineering and lives in New Hampshire. They met in Khartoum and were married in 2012. He was working to bring her to the US.

      If she has family money, this could be the cause. Last year a relative reported her to authorities for adultery (her marriage to a Christian being the issue). The apostasy charge was added later.

      May 27, 2014 at 5:47 pm |
      • Akira

        This is what I have read, as well.

        May 27, 2014 at 6:01 pm |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        I'm still not sure how he "totally depends on her for all details of his life," if he lives in New Hampshire and she lives in Sudan.

        May 27, 2014 at 9:52 pm |
  12. thefinisher1

    Atheism is like having a pen1s. You can have one and be proud of it, but when you take it out and start waving it my face, that's when we have a problem!

    May 27, 2014 at 4:47 pm |
    • Madtown

      Some people are trolling aficionados. Others are not.

      May 27, 2014 at 5:01 pm |
      • thefinisher1

        Atheism is like having a vagina too. You can have one and be proud of it, but when you take it out and start squeezing it my face, that's when we have a problem!

        May 27, 2014 at 5:12 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          Lol. Your attempts to make me stop has failed. Bashing your own atheism isn't healthy when you're an atheist....are you stupid or do you have something mentally wrong with you?

          May 27, 2014 at 5:14 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          The name stealer is back on my trail. I am so flattered!! ^_^

          May 27, 2014 at 5:15 pm |
    • thefinisher1

      lol, no one believes you are really me atheist loser. I have traction on this blog kiddo.

      May 27, 2014 at 5:16 pm |
      • thefinisher1

        I care greatly what everyone thinks of me but I will not let you atheists cramp my hernia. We could all live in the same tent together if you didn’t think your you know what don’t stink. That is the problem with atheists, all ego and no balls.

        May 27, 2014 at 5:52 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      So you admit then, you're prejudiced.
      It's ok to "preach the gospel", but nothing else.

      May 28, 2014 at 8:58 pm |
  13. bostontola

    While the Sudan hasn't signed the UN Declaration of Universal Rights, it is a signatory of the African [Banjul] Charter on Human and Peoples' Rights, adopted June 27, 1981. Article 8 says: "Freedom of conscience, the profession and free practice of religion shall be guaranteed. No one may, subject to law and order, be submitted to measures restricting the exercise of these freedoms."

    Why isn't the African Commission on Human and Peoples' Rights enforce the treaty? If not, their treaty has no value, their existence is meaningless.

    May 27, 2014 at 3:41 pm |
    • Akira

      I find it curious that they are not enforcing their own Constitution, which guarantees freedom to practice the religion of one's choice.

      May 27, 2014 at 3:52 pm |
      • bostontola

        True, but they are a sovereign country so they can do as they please internally. International agreements are different and should be enforced if they want them to have any meaning.

        May 27, 2014 at 4:31 pm |
        • Akira

          True.
          I find that just as curious as not enforcing their own Constitution.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:36 pm |
        • bostontola

          I agree. Many theocracies have religious freedom in their Govt docs, it is ignored often.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:48 pm |
    • thesamyaza

      you know.. America didn't sign it ether.

      May 27, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
      • bostontola

        Wikipedia is not perfect, but according to them the US is a signatory.

        May 27, 2014 at 4:06 pm |
        • thesamyaza

          after careful review of the actual document they have, hmm i thought they only sign the Geneva convention and not the UDHR. well regardless the usa does not follow any of it,. especially Article 25.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:22 pm |
  14. colin31714

    I will never understand why anybody engages in conversation with "the finisher1" or "Salero21" Is it not obvious to you that they are baiting you into meaningless conversations with blatantly obvious outlandish comments? If you ignore the fools they will go away.

    May 27, 2014 at 3:37 pm |
  15. Vic

    ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰

    May 27, 2014 at 3:33 pm |
    • Doris

      of the Dance. But God™ is Lord of Myths!

      May 27, 2014 at 3:39 pm |
    • hotairace

      ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰ is just repeated bullshit with no actual supporting evidence at all. Only the indoctrinated, brainwashed and mentally ill believe such crap. Have a nice day delusionals.

      May 27, 2014 at 3:42 pm |
    • Madtown

      "Still have never heard of him. If he represents truth, as you say he does, I wonder why God doesn't bother to supply this truth to me? What does he have against me?"

      – Bob of the Jungle

      May 27, 2014 at 3:50 pm |
    • thesamyaza

      ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰ is just repeated bullshit with no actual supporting evidence at all.

      the evidence for lord hood is if people call them Lord Jesus is the lord of vic

      frankly i think he should choice a better lord because calling a dead vagrant wino lord is a bit ridiculous.

      May 27, 2014 at 3:58 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      ♰♰♰ The moon is made of green cheese. ♰♰♰

      May 27, 2014 at 11:05 pm |
  16. thefinisher1

    Radical Muslims must have very weak faith. I don't care what their faith "tells them to do". If they honestly care that much about other people living among them who share a different faith, they must have a very weak faith. That goes for anyone including atheists. There's over a billion Muslims...convert or die? Radials kill more of their own people than non-Muslims!

    May 27, 2014 at 3:31 pm |
    • bostontola

      finisher,
      You just love to comment on and judge others' beliefs. According to you, atheists are liars, Muslims have weak faith.

      Yet you avoid ever stating what you affirmatively believe. Why are you afraid?

      May 27, 2014 at 3:45 pm |
      • thefinisher1

        Did you read the "radical Muslim" part or are you going blind?

        May 27, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
        • Alias

          Our boston friend is better at reading what he wanted to read than he is at comprehending what was actually posted.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:03 pm |
        • bostontola

          Not the point at all. You judge others' beliefs and faith and avoid affirmative statement of your belief. Why are you afraid?

          May 27, 2014 at 4:29 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          you judge all beliefs in one swoop. If anything, atheists are most guilty of false judgement.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:32 pm |
        • bostontola

          Again, not the point. I have stated my beliefs.

          Why are you afraid?

          May 27, 2014 at 4:46 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          Lol. It's funny how atheists get all upset when nobody pays attention to your demands.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:49 pm |
        • bostontola

          Since when is a question (complete with question mark) a demand?

          Why are you afraid?

          May 27, 2014 at 4:50 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          You atheists get some sick twisted pleasure knowing who believes what. It's really sickening how want that feeling fed.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:53 pm |
        • bostontola

          Again, not the point. You judge others' beliefs and faith, but avoid stating yours. Does that reflect on your character?

          May 27, 2014 at 4:56 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          I have only judged militants of atheism and radical Muslim men. Afraid? Nope. The only reason why you want to know is to stereotype. That's it. You are like a child that gets all upset when nobody pays attention to what you want. Grow up.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:59 pm |
        • bostontola

          Ok, we're getting somewhere. You admit you judge and you're afraid of getting stereotyped. You don't need to be afraid of being stereotyped, I'm sure you can defend your beliefs well.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:19 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          Lol! I judge on actions which I blame people for doing. You blame religion ignorantly because it gives you a sense of power. I'm not afraid of being stereotyped. The only reason you want to know is to feed your twisted sick ego.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:32 pm |
        • bostontola

          So you're afraid of my ego?

          May 27, 2014 at 9:15 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          finished, How does stating your brand of faith create a problem. It's obvious that you're a christian, most likely of the protestant variety. Do you really think Jesus wants you to lie for him?

          May 27, 2014 at 9:22 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          Wrong. I won't be feeding what you want. That's what you want me to do. Afraid? LOL. Don't make me laugh! 😜😊😝😊😜😄😜😊😄😄😊😄

          May 27, 2014 at 9:51 pm |
        • bostontola

          Thou doest protest too much. You constantly judge others' beliefs and faith, but always avoid representing your own belief. That is fear, plain and simple. Not one other poster hides their beliefs. They are proud of their beliefs and defend them.

          Are you ashamed of something and afraid to show that?

          May 27, 2014 at 10:35 pm |
    • thesamyaza

      please thefinisher1 you would do it to if you can get away with it. remember my people welcomed your with open arms for you and your god then we got charlemagned. being a pagan was still a crime punishable by death until 1850 ish. and it still goes own with out state sanctioning.

      May 27, 2014 at 4:03 pm |
      • thefinisher1

        I have nothing against pagans. I have studied a few and they were pretty interesting. It's ok. Your delusion has been destroyed.

        May 27, 2014 at 4:19 pm |
        • thesamyaza

          nope not at all,... because;

          Radical Christians must have very weak faith. I don't care what their faith "tells them to do". If they honestly care that much about other people living among them who share a different faith, they must have a very weak faith. That goes for anyone including atheists. There's over a billion Christian ...convert or die?

          May 27, 2014 at 8:26 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          Lol! This blog is literally a comedy ground for me. Restating what I said and replacing some of the words won't help you.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:44 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      "Convert or die" – otherwise known as "Cognite Intrare" – a Christian doctrine first elucidated by Saint Augustine and the primary doctrine by which Christian conquerors rationalized killing assorted heretics throughout the ages.

      May 27, 2014 at 4:24 pm |
      • thefinisher1

        Murderers love murder...nothing they claim justifies it. Only idiot like yourself believe every word (the justifications) that comes out of their mouths. Why do believe them? It gives you some sick twisted feeling that you will use as an argument. Pathetic.

        May 27, 2014 at 4:31 pm |
    • thefinisher1

      I meant radicals, not radials.

      May 27, 2014 at 5:18 pm |
  17. Reality

    How many times does it have to be pointed out? Islam is a religion based on terror and horror!! What is the solution? See below:

    May 27, 2014 at 2:47 pm |
    • Reality

      From the studies of Armstrong, Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, Richardson and Bayhaqi----–

      The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:

      ( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)

      Are you ready?

      Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

      The First Five of the 77 Branches:

      "1. Belief in Allah"

      aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your self-cleansing neurons.

      "2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

      Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".

      "3. To believe in the existence of angels."

      A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.

      "4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

      Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

      Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.

      Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

      "5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings
      be upon him) alone."

      Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

      Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

      Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.

      Analogous steps are available at your request for deprogramming the myths of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism..

      May 27, 2014 at 2:48 pm |
      • Reality

        الدراسات ارمسترونغ ، رشدي ، هيرسي علي، ريتشاردسون و البيهقي
        From Google Translate
        ----–

        الخطوات الخمس ل أبطل تأثير 1400 سنة من الأساطير الإسلامية :

        ( خطوات تأخذ أقل من دقيقتين لإنهاء ببساطة مذهلة، و دقيقتين لإحلال السلام والعقلانية ل أكثر من مليار نسمة ، لا تقدر بثمن فقدت !)

        هل أنت مستعد؟

        باستخدام "إن الفروع الإسلامية 77 من " الإيمان " مجموعة جمعتها الإمام البيهقي كنقطة انطلاق . في ذلك، وهو ما يفسر الفضائل الأساسية التي تعكس حقيقة" الإيمان " ( إيمان ) من خلال الآيات القرآنية ذات الصلة، و أحاديث نبوية . " أي ملخصا لطيفة من القرآن والمعتقدات الإسلامية.

        الخمسة الأولى من الفروع 77 :

        " 1 . الإيمان بالله "

        الملقب باسم الله ، الرب ، زيوس، الرب ، الطبيعة الأم ، وما إلى ذلك يجب أن تضاف إلى الخلايا العصبية تطهير نفسك .

        " 2 . إلى الاعتقاد بأن كل شيء غير الله كان غير موجود. بعد ذلك، خلق الله العلي هذه الأشياء ، وبعد ذلك جاءوا إلى حيز الوجود . "

        التطور و الانفجار الكبير أو " غي ب G- NAB " (عندما يبدأ الكون لإعادة تدوير ) هي أكثر قبولا و ينبغي أن تدرج في " المندرجة تحت عبارة " في سبيل الله إذا كنت لا تزال تشكل " بجمعية العقارات – tionist " .

        " 3 . إلى الاعتقاد في وجود الملائكة. "

        عنصر رئيسي لتطهير الخلايا العصبية. الملائكة / دي VILS هي الإبداعات الأسطورية من الحضارات القديمة ، على سبيل المثال HITT خائبي ، لشرح / تعريف الأحداث الطبيعية ، والاتصالات مع آلهتهم ، والطيور الكبيرة ، والرياح المفاجئة ، وحماة في ليالي الظلام، الخ لا " جميلة / ميكروغرام لاي ثينجيس wingy " بزيارة أي وقت مضى أو تحدثت إلى محمد ، يسوع ، مريم أو جوزيف أو جو سميث . اليوم كنا تصنيف الملائكة كما و – airies و " القصدير كير تكون LLS " . تصنف دي VILS الحديثة مثل مونس دي في دي mented .

        " 4 . إلى الاعتقاد بأن جميع الكتب السماوية التي تم إرسالها إلى الأنبياء مختلفة صحيحة . ومع ذلك، وبصرف النظر عن القرآن، كل الكتب الأخرى ليست صالحة بعد الآن. "

        آخر بندا رئيسيا في حذفها. لا توجد كتب في ولاية روح السماء ( إذا كان هناك واحد) مثلما لا توجد ملائكة لكتابة / نشر / توزيعها . القرآن ، OT ، NT وما هي ببساطة الكتب التي كتبت من قبل البشر للبشر .

        اخترعت الأنبياء من قبل الكتبة القديمة عادة للحفاظ على الجماهير الامم المتحدة تعليما في الخط. اليوم ونحن ندعو لهم فرز الأصوات لل تناغم.

        نبوءات هي أيضا invali مؤرخة من قبل الهدايا / الله / الله الطبيعية من الإرادة الحرة والمستقبل .

        " 5 . إلى الاعتقاد بأن جميع الأنبياء صحيحة ، لكننا مأمورون اتباع النبي محمد ( عليه الصلاة والسلام
        صلى الله عليه وسلم) وحده " .

        محمد قضى ثلاثين يوما " الصيام " ( أسطورة رمضان ) في كهف الساخن قبل أول اتصال له مع الله الملقب الخ الله عبر " ممتزوجات wingy جدا " . الحس السليم يتطلب حذف الخلايا العصبية من # 5 . # 5 هو أيضا مصدر رئيسي لل الإسلامي VI- olence أي تحول " ، يحركها الجوع بسرعة " cinations hallu محمد إلى واقع فظيع لغير المؤمنين .

        المشي هذه خمس خطوات ، ونحن نضمن الانتعاش الكامل من الطرق الإسلامية الخاصة بك! !

        للأسف ، لا يوجد كثير من المعلقين مسلم / القراء على هذا بلوق وبالتالي فإن " لمدة دقيقتين " هو عدم الحصول على علاج لأولئك الذين في حاجة إليها . إذا كان لديك صديق مسلم ، وإرسال نسخة منه و تساعد في إنقاذ العالم.

        تتوفر خطوات مماثلة في طلبك للحصول على deprogramming الأساطير المسيحية واليهودية والبوذية والهندوسية و الوثنية ..

        May 27, 2014 at 2:55 pm |
  18. I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

    "A person has the fundamental right to be a Christian.
    ----------–
    I agree that people should have this right, should they so choose, though it is clearly not the case here.

    ...human beings have no right to convict another of apostasy.
    ------------
    I agree completely with this sentiment, though it is clearly not the case here.

    The remainder of your post made no sense at all.

    May 27, 2014 at 2:46 pm |
    • Doris

      Yes, I do as well not(GOPer). Below I was just providing just as outlandish a claim as those included in Ron's post.

      May 27, 2014 at 2:54 pm |
    • Akira

      I find his statement curious, as Christians accuse other Christians of apostasy all the time.

      May 27, 2014 at 2:56 pm |
    • believerfred

      GOPer
      You and Doris must have gone to different schools together because you have both lost sight of God. Let me assume for a moment there is no God. You were not entitled to existence and have no fundamental rights whatsoever. Pure accidental chemicals having an effect on organic matter does not bestow anything on you. Just because over billions of years matter and energy have changed form does not entitle you to squat. When that state again changes by some random cause the next set or subset of organic matter will continue to have zero fundamental rights.

      May 27, 2014 at 2:56 pm |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        " You were not enti.tled to existence and have no fundamental rights whatsoever."
        ----------------–
        Says who Fred? You?

        As far as I can tell, I do exist whether you think there is a God or not.

        May 27, 2014 at 3:00 pm |
        • believerfred

          Existence does not give you any rights if there is no God. Rights are granted by dominance and any freedom you think you have is simply that which dominance allows. Dominance absent God is the authority. Atheists have freedom as the result of belief in God (real or imagined) by the masses. Absent God the likes of Stalin determine the position of your subservience by virtue of position of dominance.

          May 27, 2014 at 3:08 pm |
        • Akira

          Stalin existed. Does that prove God doesn't?

          May 27, 2014 at 3:10 pm |
        • Akira

          Not to mention the article we are commenting on is about which God has dominance over that particular region.

          May 27, 2014 at 3:13 pm |
        • Doris

          Fred that's just a fancy way to attempt to describe how we historically and socially arrived in certain parts of the world with certain beliefs to where we are now – some of the influences. And so you are only underscoring the importance of consensus for both believers and non-believers. I really don't think your scenario answers any ultimate "truth".

          May 27, 2014 at 3:17 pm |
        • believerfred

          Akira
          Mankind always gets it wrong when it comes to God which is evidenced by the Bible and our ugly history as human. God is not dominate in the embrace of Islam as we have seen. It is man and the evil heart of the Imam driving the hate and torture of others. This is not God in any way shape or form. This is evil. Man (Hitler, African Slave Trade) twist dominate religions to attract and maintain their support group in order to carry out good or evil. That is not a reflection on God but a reflection of mans abuse of what God created as good.

          May 27, 2014 at 3:31 pm |
        • believerfred

          Doris
          Even you and I cannot agree on ultimate truth. How could mankind?
          The fact we both must accept an authority to arbitrate truth is evidence of a higher authority. I say there is God and you say there is no God. Only God could be in a position to resolve that truth. There is no amount of evidence (given the nature of God) that could convince other than the willingness to accept God.
          If you and I disagree about the amplitude of charged particle in a euclidean field we could agree to accept what Stephen Hawking says. When it comes to matters of the soul and salvation or the meaning of life I would ask Jesus yet you reject Jesus out of hand without suggesting any other authority we could agree upon. That is the state of godlessness. That is the state mankind has never experienced. The end result is confusion with everyone adopting what they and only they accept. Anarchy and the end of days

          May 27, 2014 at 3:43 pm |
        • Akira

          God is not dominate in the embrace of Islam as we have seen.

          Adherents of Islam would most likely say the same of adherents of Christianity.

          They so not follow your Bible, just as you don't follow their Koran.

          And neither of these books address Stalin, who you brought up as some sort of barometer in which atheism is measured.

          May 27, 2014 at 3:48 pm |
        • Madtown

          I say there is God and you say there is no God
          -----
          Whether God exists or not, RELIGION remains a creation of the human mind. If God exists, it's extremely likely that no religion is anywhere close to describing the truth of God. We just don't know.

          May 27, 2014 at 3:48 pm |
        • believerfred

          Akira
          Correct the Bible and Koran do not allow what we see going on and neither follow the truth of God most of the time but follow their false religions.
          Stalin is mentioned among the godless but not by name. Those who do not know God do what Stalin did. Atheists were not allowed near the red button at our nuke sites. Obama changed this and belief in God is no longer a requirement as a fail safe to avoid the end of everything mankind ever knew to be in the hands of the godless.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:04 pm |
        • midwest rail

          " God is no longer a requirement as a fail safe to avoid the end of everything mankind ever knew to be in the hands of the godless."
          What a steaming pile of tripe. How about keeping that button away from a fundamentalist who WELCOMES the idea of the end times ?

          May 27, 2014 at 4:10 pm |
        • Doris

          Fred: "The fact we both must accept an authority to arbitrate truth is evidence of a higher authority."

          Self-validating nonsense, fred.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:11 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          'Those who do not know God do what Stalin did."
          ---------–
          This is nonsense.

          "Atheists were not allowed near the red button at our nuke sites."
          ----------
          There is some truth to this. The USAF is one of the worst governmental violators of the first amendment and continues to be so.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:16 pm |
        • believerfred

          Madtown
          God cannot be known by man. God reveals to mankind and has always done so. What man does with the revelation God gives is a reflection of mankind at any point in time.
          God has been revealed. You claim to know more that the greatest men of all time as to what is God. Now, if you were anyone other than yourself would you recommend your great position of knowledge of the unknown or can you think of a higher authority.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:20 pm |
        • believerfred

          midwest
          Your beloved leader mandated that belief or absence of belief cannot be used as a basis for rejecting a candidate.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:22 pm |
        • believerfred

          Doris
          Great, so whose authority would you accept should we attempt to resolve our difference?

          May 27, 2014 at 4:25 pm |
        • midwest rail

          Yet another non sequitur reply from fred. Like it or not, he is OUR leader, fred. We survived 8 years of nonsense under Bush, you'll survive this, all the paranoia to the contrary. And you avoided addressing the point of my reply. I'm shocked, I tell you.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:25 pm |
        • believerfred

          midwest rail
          I did comment to your "What a steaming pile of tripe. How about keeping that button away from a fundamentalist who WELCOMES the idea of the end times ?" Muslims cannot be kept away from the red button on the basis of faith., after all it is a religion of peace.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:31 pm |
        • Doris

          Do you live in the U.S., Fred? Do you have the authority in the U.S. to stone someone to death because they don't hold the same beliefs as you? There are places where the authority to allow such judgement allegedly comes from the Abrahamic God according to some of that god's followers, no?

          May 27, 2014 at 4:33 pm |
        • midwest rail

          Yes, fred, just everyone knows there are no fundamentalist Christians out there who welcome the idea of the end times. (insert eye roll here). Your original premise of being a believer as a guarantee against using that button incorrectly is what is a steaming pile of tripe, fred. Sadly, I'm sure you know that it's tripe, but chose to propagate a falsehood anyway. Again, I'm shocked.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:34 pm |
        • Akira

          Fred,
          And those who "know God" commit atrocities in His name all the time.
          I would call that equally as horrific.
          Usin Stalin as representative of atheists is rather disingenuous.
          Just as using Hitler as representative of Christians is.

          One shouldn't fall into that fallacious trap.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:45 pm |
        • Madtown

          believerfred
          God cannot be known by man
          ----–
          Yet, here you are making statements of conclusion about God. LOL.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:51 pm |
        • believerfred

          Doris
          Midwestrail
          There is truth and there is religion. Religion is of man and carries with it all the evil in mans heart. That includes those who took the Old Testament on carpet ride to Mecca and those who took the Old testament aboard the African Slave Trade. This is the way mankind seems to do things and how we handle the truth. The Bible even gives repeated warning about these tendencies.
          Atheists have been seen as not trustworthy because there is no purpose for existence other than existence. Christians and Jews are seen to have accountability that extends beyond this brief moment of physical encounter. What you have done is to acknowledge that behavior reflects belief and should never be minimized. Yes, we can pretend to let atheists control the red button and be elected president of the United States and pretend to allow witches and Christians to equally have that position as well. Reality check, that is not the way it happens.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:51 pm |
        • midwest rail

          Good grief, fred. Do you EVER address a point head-on without deflection and misdirection ? You're as dishonest as Bill Deacon used to be, and that's not a worthy accomplishment.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:54 pm |
        • believerfred

          Akira
          Oh no, are you suggesting Hitler and Stalin would not have done what they did if they accepted Christ and loved their neighbor as themselves?

          May 27, 2014 at 4:54 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          Atheists have been seen as not trustworthy because there is no purpose for existence other than existence. ... Yes, we can pretend to let atheists control the red button and be elected president of the United States and pretend to allow witches and Christians to equally have that position as well. Reality check, that is not the way it happens.
          --------------------
          Wow, just wow.

          So just obsolete the free exercise clause then Fred?

          May 27, 2014 at 4:57 pm |
        • Doris

          Notice how fred avoided a direct answer to my last question; went on and on and all over the place starting with a mention of "truth" as if he were a god holding his "truth" in his hand.

          May 27, 2014 at 5:06 pm |
        • Doris

          The CDC really needs to do a thorough study on Topherism.

          May 27, 2014 at 5:09 pm |
        • believerfred

          GOPer
          If there was a free exercise clause one would expect those running for office of president of the United States would not need to pretend to be Christian.

          May 27, 2014 at 5:10 pm |
        • believerfred

          Doris.
          "Do you have the authority in the U.S. to stone someone to death because they don't hold the same beliefs as you?"
          =>no
          " There are places where the authority to allow such judgement allegedly comes from the Abrahamic God according to some of that god's followers, no?"
          =>There is no such authority. Authority claimed for such judgement is form the Father of all lies.....Satan.

          May 27, 2014 at 5:18 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          Fred,

          clearly there is a free exercise clause. Clearly it is not respected by enough of the voting Christian majority for the religion of our elected officials not to matter.

          Your arguments here indicate that not only does a candidate's religion matter, but that it should match yours.

          May 27, 2014 at 5:21 pm |
        • Doris

          " There are places where the authority to allow such judgement allegedly comes from the Abrahamic God according to some of that god's followers, no?"
          Fred: "There is no such authority. Authority claimed for such judgement is form the Father of all lies.....Satan."

          Of course that's your opinion, Fred. Theists vary quite a bit on which things are of Satan and which things are of God. For example the Pope being an antichrist to many other Christians.

          May 27, 2014 at 5:24 pm |
        • believerfred

          GOPer
          There is a vast gulf between those who are Christ like and those who are godless. Christianity as a religion is not a good gauge for Christ likeness. We are not to judge others as the world judges (i.e. negative marginalizing view of others) yet cannot be fools and ignore the reality of this world. I would trust the current Pope more than Stalin to hold the red button. Stalin could not have done as he did if he were Christ like regardless of capitalistic or communistic foundations. Character is character. On this web site you would not even give Colin a red easy button from Staples yet alone a red button for our nukes. Doc on the other hand could never push the button so I give it to Topher. Would you not do the same?

          May 27, 2014 at 5:44 pm |
        • believerfred

          Doris
          " Theists vary quite a bit on which things are of Satan and which things are of God. For example the Pope being an antichrist to many other Christians."
          =>correct, this is why Jesus said "do not pull up the tares, rather allow them to grow with the wheat as you will harm some wheat in the process, wait until the harvest time then the angel of God will gather them both and throw those destined for the fire into the fire"
          =>certainly I can see where the RCC has done great harm to the cause of Christianity
          =>There is a difference between claim of authority and actual authority. God allows many things up to a point not because God is indifferent as to pain rather we are given enough rope to hang ourselves. If there was no tree before Adam and Eve they would never have revealed true desire was not for God.

          May 27, 2014 at 6:11 pm |
        • Doris

          Fred: "=>There is a difference between claim of authority and actual authority."

          I would imagine for the theist also, fred, that there's a difference in God's authority and one such as yourself claiming to know the mind of God and the extent of his authority.

          May 27, 2014 at 6:15 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          Character is character.
          ------------–
          Absolutely. And character has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with religious affiliation.

          Nikita Khrushchev had the red button. Guess what? He didn't use it. Having seen the horrors wrought by the second world war on the Soviet Union first hand, the Soviets were less likely to push the button than the US was. What does that tell you?

          May 27, 2014 at 6:17 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          Yuri Andropov had the red button and he didn't use it either, even on his deathbed and when told a US nuclear attack was imminent.

          Look up Able Archer 83.

          May 27, 2014 at 6:26 pm |
        • believerfred

          Doris
          I do not claim to know the mind of God. I take what Jesus said as being the best we could possibly understand. I take the Bible as a whole as the best understanding of God as recorded by the Hebrew over time. I believe this to be true by personal experience which continues to prove without exception that what Jesus said is true. Show me something Jesus said that has been proven false and you have reasonable cause to doubt. By what authority can you say Jesus was not correct?

          May 27, 2014 at 6:29 pm |
        • Akira

          Power does bad things, Fred. I don't think it would have made a bit of difference.
          It never has in the past, now has it?
          I see you are condemning Obama for recognizing the rights of all citizens in this country. You see this as a bad thing.
          Is that very Christ-like? No.
          Although I can see where it holds some charm to those who think suppressing citizens who don't goosestep to to one's particular version of God makes them feel in powerful and righteous...

          May 27, 2014 at 7:24 pm |
        • believerfred

          Akira
          Seriously, you believe a fundamentalist Muslim should be given nuclear codes?

          May 27, 2014 at 7:31 pm |
        • believerfred

          Akira
          " see you are condemning Obama for recognizing the rights of all citizens in this country. You see this as a bad thing.
          Is that very Christ-like? No."
          =>Get real, on the one hand he publicly claims IRAN cannot have nuclear weapons then turns around and gives Muslims the keys to our nuclear weapons.

          May 27, 2014 at 7:40 pm |
        • Doris

          fred: "I take what Jesus said as being the best we could possibly understand."

          There's little evidence for what allegedly occurred or was said by whom in the Gospels, fred. Some hearsay, but really almost no decent evidence for these writings of mostly unknown authorship.

          May 27, 2014 at 7:45 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          "Seriously, you believe a fundamentalist Muslim should be given nuclear codes?"
          -------------
          Pakistan already has them. I am not in favor of nuclear proliferation. So no, I don't want to see more Islamic states or (any) Islamic jihadi movements with nuclear weapons.

          Of course perhaps you would apply the Wayne LaPierre argument: "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun", the implication being that everyone should be armed, but Sarah Palin already said that:

          "“Mr. President, The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a nuke is a good guy with a nuke,”
          – Sarah Palin (CPAC 2014)

          May 27, 2014 at 7:47 pm |
        • midwest rail

          "...then turns around and gives Muslims the keys to our nuclear weapons."
          Which they are unable to use independent of another individual with a separate key, keys which cannot be turned by one person. Does your paranoia and dishonesty know any bounds, fred ?

          May 27, 2014 at 8:12 pm |
        • believerfred

          Doris
          20,000 some odd manuscripts and the entire New Testament could be fraud? A made up religion.....
          Flavius Josephus, Tacitus, Thallus Circa, Pliny the Younger, The Talmud, Lucian, Papias, Irenaeus, Polycarp and others attested to the early works in their life span. All this long before the typical fraud proposed by atheists after AD 170
          Even if you believed all those who attest to Jesus and the writings prior to AD 170 you would never accept the words themselves. The same objections were voiced by skeptics of the Old Testament until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:15 pm |
        • believerfred

          Doris
          The path detailed in Acts for the beginning of the Church ended in our dominate World View of this very day. Can you prove any of Jesus words as wrong or false? Follow Christ and you will find the kingdom and salvation. Even if you cut up the New Testament like Jefferson you will find a wonderful life.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:21 pm |
        • believerfred

          GOPer
          Live by the sword die by the sword is the way of the world and there is no escaping.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:27 pm |
        • believerfred

          midwest rail
          I enter the movie Red October as peoples exhibit A. Should Obama or the next president (Jeb Bush) call a nuke strike that guy in the cilo may just hold off long enough to avert disaster or be trigger happy.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:31 pm |
        • midwest rail

          All of which is possible regardless of the religious persuasion, or lack thereof, of the individual sitting in the silo, fred.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:35 pm |
        • believerfred

          So, you are ok with me or heaven sent holding the key to the future?

          May 27, 2014 at 8:42 pm |
        • midwest rail

          No one person with a key can do any damage fred. It would take two individuals acting in concert to do what you are suggesting.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:44 pm |
      • James XCIX

        " Let me assume for a moment there is no God. You were not ent.itled to existence and have no fundamental rights whatsoever."

        How in the world does that assumption lead you to your following statement?

        May 27, 2014 at 3:00 pm |
        • believerfred

          James
          The World view of mankind as far back as we go reflects belief in something greater than self or self existence. That act in itself over tens of thousands of years established the pattern of humanity as we know it today. Taking our power and acknowledging a greater one as authority. Over time we have the evolved social structure leading to civilization based upon something greater. That authority has been accepted and rules governing social behavior is greater than any man (Stalin or Mao for example) or ideal generated by men. At the center is the structure for respect because there is always a higher center to which we are held accountable.
          The minority of godless are beginning to dive a godless existence (never before experienced by mankind) as if existence is all there ever was. That position unknowingly removes the only authority all of mankind has agreed upon since Neanderthal. It never mattered if God was Christ or not what mattered was the core acceptance universally that there was authority outside of man and greater than man. The end of Days as the Bible calls it will be when the only authority is the anti-Christ. When mankind rejects God and accepts that which is not God hence the name anti-Christ.

          May 27, 2014 at 3:22 pm |
        • James XCIX

          fred – You seem to be describing an outdated view of authority that existed before the Enlightenment, with monarchs supposedly ruling by divine right, etc. Thank goodness we've moved past that.

          May 27, 2014 at 5:04 pm |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        I exist, you exist, bonobos exist, bacteria exist, viruses exist, geraniums exist, whales exist, bowls of petunias exist.

        All those non-random but apparently random chemicals got busy.

        May 27, 2014 at 3:03 pm |
        • believerfred

          Perhaps most striking is when I read what you say there is something missing. It has essence and is what I call life. You have described a robot we recently built with organics, artificial Intelligence and capacity to self replicate. It meets the definition of life is cute but something is missing.

          May 27, 2014 at 3:51 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          A Candid Conversation between Two Species

          The Man: I am the predilect object of Creation, the centre of all that exists…
          The Tapeworm: You are exalting yourself a little. If you consider yourself the lord of Creation, what can I be, who feed upon you and am ruler in your entrails?
          The Man: You lack reason and an immortal soul.
          The Tapeworm: And since it is an established fact that the concentration and complexity of the nervous system appear in the animal scale as an uninterrupted series of graduations, where are we cut off? How many neurons must be possessed in order to have a soul and a little rationality?
          – Santiago Ramon y Cajal, Recollections of My Life

          May 27, 2014 at 3:59 pm |
        • believerfred

          Doc
          Bingo! Even the tapeworm had awareness of higher authority

          May 27, 2014 at 4:14 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          Bravo Fred. I hope you enjoy your new life as a Jainist.

          May 27, 2014 at 4:33 pm |
  19. believerfred

    Doris
    Good news is that Ron is not held accountable for not getting the memo.
    Jesus said we are go and tell everyone about the good news. I don't see any reference to the Dawkiins memo.

    May 27, 2014 at 2:45 pm |
    • Science Works

      Hey fred – Education really sad state to withhold it from children no ? Sort of a memo no ?

      States are fighting new science curriculum teaching climate change and evolution
      By Jacob Kastrenakes on May 19, 2014 09:55 am Email @jake_k

      http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/19/5730600/states-debate-ngss-science-standards-teaching-climate-change-evolution

      And we KNOW evoluion is true fred – right fred ?

      But I am not Doris !

      May 27, 2014 at 5:05 pm |
      • believerfred

        Science Works
        How can you say we know evolution is true? One cannot make such a statement. Be specific as there are many elements of evolution that are backed by valid evidence and accepted by consensus. Did humans evolve from specific known organic compounds................we don't know but it is a possible given a host of assumptions.

        May 27, 2014 at 6:48 pm |
        • evolveddna

          BelieverFred.. Maybe you are getting confused with abiogenesis and evolution. There is over whelming evidence for evolution and maybe in your most secluded moments you may even understand that it makes sense, given the human body's imperfections. I see your bible as square peg attempting to fit into a round "reality" hole. I have more "faith" in humans I guess than you do. Real people will assist you in a crisis Fred..not the invisible, unknowing, untouchable god you claim to know the mind of.

          May 27, 2014 at 8:25 pm |
      • Science Works

        Hey fred

        I will make this simple fred – the 8 year old girl from SC could teach you something maybe ?

        Her fossil bill for state fossil was signed today without the god amendment !

        May 27, 2014 at 8:13 pm |
  20. Ron Travis

    Why is Meriam still in prison? Being a Christian is not a crime.

    A person has the fundamental right to be a Christian in any part of this world that God created.

    Only God can judge a person for their faith or lack thereof, human beings have no right to convict another of apostasy.

    #FreetobeaChristian

    May 27, 2014 at 2:29 pm |
    • Doris

      "A person has the fundamental right to be a Christian in any part of this world that God created."

      You didn't get the memo? God flew the coup just after creating this universe. Yep – skedaddled right down a worm-hole to go work on the next one.

      May 27, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
    • Akira

      Unfortunately, it is a crime in Sudan to convert to Christianity if one is born a Muslim.
      It is useless to apply Western standards of freedom to places that do not embrace it.

      That being said, I hope this woman is released with her children, and she and her sons are reunited with her husband...and they leave Sudan.

      Religion should never be used to tear families apart.

      May 27, 2014 at 2:49 pm |
      • Akira

        Strike the sons part. I erroneously id'd her newborn as a boy.

        May 27, 2014 at 2:54 pm |
    • tallulah131

      Ron? Sudan is a sovereign nation and as such has every right to create and enforce their own laws, no matter how repugnant they may be. Your religious arrogance stems from the same sense of entitlement that the Sudanese use to create their laws. Until humans look past religion and see human rights, people will continue to die in the name of religion.

      May 27, 2014 at 3:15 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Except that God commanded His chosen people to kill apostates.
      Read Deuteronomy 13 for the details.

      May 27, 2014 at 3:19 pm |
    • Allen

      That is right. This kind of atrocity against humanity needs to stop, it's the 21st century and there should be zero tolerance against those that deny basic human rights of others! Freedom of religion clause within UDHR should be mandated and MUST be made legally enforceable. All violations of fundamental human rights by any country must be criminally prosecuted.

      May 27, 2014 at 3:35 pm |
      • tallulah131

        It's like talking to children..

        Again, Sudan is a sovereign nation and as such has the right to make and enforce it's own laws, even if those laws are repugnant. You can protest and sanction all the live-long day, but you can't make another nation change it's laws to suit your own beliefs - unless of course, you want another war. I think this country and it's military are tired of war, so I truly doubt that it will happen.

        May 27, 2014 at 6:09 pm |
      • Frank

        You ignore the barking dog like the one above.

        May 27, 2014 at 9:31 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.