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June 20th, 2014
10:18 AM ET
Presbyterians vote to allow same-sex marriage(CNN) - The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) voted Thursday to allow pastors to marry same-sex couples in states where it is legal. The church also voted, by an overwhelming majority, to change the language about marriage in the church constitution to "two persons" from a "man and a woman," according to More Light Presbyterians, a group that supports gay rights. To take effect, that change would need to be approved by a majority of 172 local presbyteries, which have a year to vote, the church said in a statement. However, starting Saturday, pastors can go ahead and begin marrying same-sex couples in the states that allow it, according to Toya Richards Jackson, a church spokeswoman. "The church affirmed all its faithful members today. This vote is an answer to many prayers for the Church to recognize love between committed same-sex couples," said Alex McNeill, executive director at More Light Presbyterians. FULL STORY |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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No surprise here. The Presbyterian Church ( U.S.A) has been entrenched in liberalism for decades. This is simply a logical progression of their accommodating theology.
So then, you actually think your beliefs are more authentic than ALL of the serious religious people in the Presbyterian Church ? I got news for ya self-righteous Church Lady. SOmeone you may know once called people like you "whited sepulchers"
real
Yes, of course, you must be referring to the "New Jesus", the one that that never speaks to morality or righteousness but simply goes about spreading the love flowers. You throw out the judgmental, "self righteousness" tags as if you actually have a clue as to how they are used in the biblical context. For the record, you don't.
There is only one Jesus. No new Jesus. Well then, have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16.
that's awesome Dev, he's always 'interpreting' scripture he also professes not to believe in.
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. – Galatians 1:8, NKJV
Dev makes a very good point when he says in effect that they preach another Jesus.
And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,' – Matthew 19:4, NKJV
Not sure what thread you're following. I'm not preaching a new Jesus. Only one. Only what's in the bible. It's important to study the bible. "For I bear them witness, that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. But because of not knowing the righteousness of God, but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. Romans 10:2, 3.
scot
Ya know, I make it a point to be cordial and respectful when conversing with others on this forum who do not share my perspectives. It's just that I have no more tolerance for the stupidity that is put on display by those who make accusations of hypocrisy against individuals adhering to the moral teachings of their faith. This stupidity is only heightened when the attempt is made to portray Jesus as indiffernet to moral issues.
But this is the new attack mode, I see it often.
Well, dev, wouldn't you say there's a difference between "adhering to the moral teachings of their faith" and saying that those Christians that you don't agree with are not Christians?
org
With all due respect, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or if it's even me you are addressing.
Doris
Yes there is a differnce, but it is a comparison I never made. I disagree with their moral stance, but that disagreement has no bearing on whether or not they are Christians. That is their creator's determination.
"the one that that never speaks to morality or righteousness but simply goes about spreading the love flowers."
Yeah, wouldn't want that now would we...much better to single people out and shame them for their se.xual orientation because you have the one "true" message from the creator of the universe.
awanderingscot,m
What did Jesus say about the MORE IMPORTANT Golden Rule?
i always love it when sin is repackaged as "s.exual orientation". there is no right or wrong about anything you can change the definition for. if the prevailing 'moral values' make it acceptable then lace that boot up and wear it; just don't lie and say Jesus Christ says it's ok.
Cheese
It's so good to see youi and I agreeing on so many fronts recently.
awanderingscot,
Jesus said the women who divorced and remarried are ADULTERERS.
So do you oppose any of them remarrying or are you just another Christian HYPOCRITE? How many such ADULTERERS are in your family or friends?
I didn't say Jesus said it was ok. I don't think Jesus was all that he is cr@cked up to be morally...and I didn't "repackage" sin. There is no such thing as sin.
Observer
are you here to help preserve an apostate church? or do you agree with the bible on immorality?
You knew it wouldn't last devin. It one reason I respect about our conversations. We will bluntly speak our mind when we disagree. I respect you as a person....that doesn't mean I respect your position on issues....of course that is a 2 way street.
Observer
why don't you give me a short dissertation on what Christ meant concerning the golden rule. go ahead.
awanderingscot,
Why would I support much of the immorality of the Bible? Slavery, discriminations, and beating helpless children is just plain WRONG.
awanderingscot ,
Matthew 7:12 “Treat others as you want them to treat you. THIS IS WHAT THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS ARE ALL ABOUT.”
This is either news for many Christians or just something for HYPOCRITES to ignore.
Something hypocrites want to ignore
Cheese
My previous line was pure sarcasm in case yoiu didn't pick up on it.
" There is no such thing as sin"
I always enjoy our discussions, but on that statement there is just no where for us to go. If there is one thing I am certain of in this life, it is that this concept of sin is a reality. I see its presence everywhere, not least of all my own inner person.
The easy way out for me would be to deny its existence. I find it much more appealing to believe that there is no sin, that human behavior is simply the product of evolutionary development, and that ultimate accountable to a creator is meaningless. Yes, it would be much easier, but with that ease would come dishonesty to what I know to be true.
Observer
all sin, no matter what permutation is sin. yes, there are adulterers in my family and I've been guilty in the past of this sin. but that does not mean i condone it. but speaking out against it (just as you speak for it) does not make me a hypocrite. so you calling me a hypocrite doesn't convict me in the least. i'm unfazed. what does convict me is a healthy godly conscience. those who profess to be God's church need to worship in spirit and truth and when they tell us God says this is ok when His written word says otherwise i will always side with His word. now if you find that offensive, you need to take it to a higher authority. you won't dissuade me from speaking out against it.
Observer
you have a sick and twisted interpretation of what Christ was saying.
awanderingscot,
"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Why not clean up your own family before casting stones at others? Skip the HYPOCRISY.
Yes devin I picked up on your sarcasm just as you picked up on mine. That is why I didn't point out that I wasn't really agreeing with you there.
I define sin as a crime against god...specifically the Christian god. I don't believe the CHristian god is real, so of course I don't believe sin exists either. Of course humans wrong each other...and we hurt ourselves. And when we do we are reponsible to the ones we harm...and to ourselves. Following the rules of a diety is not practicing morality. It is nothing more than obedience.
awanderingscot,
Speaking of SICK, another LIE from you., More HYPOCRISY. More IGNORING commands not to lie.,
" Of course humans wong each oher"
Perhaps the understatement of the year. This " wronging " runs the gamut from lying to your wife to the inceration of millions. As a human, I look for answers, I look for cause and effect. The chrisitan explanation for the state of this planet and its inhabitants for me is by far the most lucid and realistic. Attributing sin, evil, "wronging" to some impersonal " it just is" mentality seems to me naive.
" Wrong"
Hopefully that wasn't Freudian.
Saying consensual s.ex among adults as "evil, wrong and sinful" because the creator of the universe (of course the one you believe in) cares about who we do it with and how we do it seems extremely naive and more than a little arrogant. Morality is not just understanding what is right and wrong but more importantly, why something is right and wrong. And you have admitted you have no reason to say such activity is immoral other than because you believe your god "said so". I would say that is the very definition of a naive understanding of why something is wrong.
"Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,' – Matthew 19:4, NKJ
So what ? You have in NO WAY demonstrated why an ancient book book should guide modern humans, or ANY reason toi IMPOSE you ancient human moral system on anyone in 2014. Doing Babble quotes is utterly worthless, troll. No one questions, "male and female", AND YOU have not addressed the POINT. The POINT is humas have discovered that EVERY species on the planet (supposedly "intelligently designed" ... according to you people), engages in SS behaviors, and have orientations FROM BIRTH towards the same s'ex. You little quote is worthless, and meaningless. Do try a little harder.
wandering
"that's awesome Dev, he's always 'interpreting' scripture he also professes not to believe in."
That's not the only possibility – the more likely scenario is that one or many of the different christian sects has pronounced its interpretation as "the way". Most people in the West are regularly exposed to those pronouncements, generally starting in early childhood.
But of course.
And a welcome change from the sanctimonious BS flouted by the evangelical Christian coalition.
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; Romans 1:26-28, NKJV
awanderingscot,
Were the people of Jerusalem any better than those of Sodom?
of course they weren't "better" as you put it, but what's your point?
OMG could people please quote something other than Paul? That guy was so far in the closet, he was finding christmas presents.
awanderingscot,
So why do you talk about how bad the people of Sodom were when the people of Jerusalem were WORSE?
Any answer other than HYPOCRISY?
All religious values (only) reflect the culture of their times. The ORIGINATE in culture, and then sanction culture. Values do not originate in religion. 100 years ago no one would even discuss this subject AT ALL. Hollywood changed that. Religion had nothing to do with the cultural change. As always, (including the injunctions supposedly "given" by the gods in the Bible), the cultural change is reflected in religion. Nothing surprising about this at all.
Over 2000 years ago, the bible foretold what people would be like in the last days. 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Moral decline in human behavior.
Human behavior has not gotten any worse over the last 2000 years.
Besides, many do not consider the JW to be Christian, anyhow. Your religion has no more/less authority than the Presbyrterians.
Sorry.
Christian or not, they've got this right. Only a blind person would deny there is a moral decline.
awanderingscot
"Only a blind person would deny there is a moral decline."
Morals appear to be improving. We no longer support discrimination against women and the handicapped like the Bible does. We don't allow slavery like the Bible supports and discrimination against gays is nearing an end. Big improvement.
I disagree. It has always been thus. Because of improved technology and communication, one knows current events that much faster; but the general populace are not doing anything they haven't always done, with the percentages remaining approximately the same, adjusted for the population explosion.
well Akira, we'll just have to disagree on this, but you also disagree with His written word.
I question, awanderingscot. Which I have every right to do, without the expectation of being judged by whose who don't.
*by those who don't.
DYAC.
scot
"but you also disagree with His written word."
Not just that, I disagree that there was any "His" involved in the book. Every word in your book was put there by men who claimed to speak for god. Still no indication that any gods exist, but there is a huge amount of evidence that men wrote your bible, taking stories from previous cultures, taking a huge amount of the Buddha's teaching to create your Jesus character.
You do not know you have anything from god in your book. To claim it has any authority is dishonest until you can prove your claim. Until you can, it is just another work of man.
Yeah, Moral decline.
Slavery is no longer acceptable.
Women are generally treated better than at anytime in history.
Humans are just getting worse and worse.
Many are slave to sin
Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. – John 8:34, NKJV
And why should I give a cr@p what Jesus is claimed to have said? Ramblings of a cult leader.
Another vague prophesy that can be interpreted to suit the occasion. Several civilizations have "gone wild" and no doomsday. This is like the end-of-the-world prophesies – next time for sure until the next time.
orgjjw....oh great....another crackpot.
You can call me names. I won't call you one. Have a great day.
A Jehovah crackpot at that...one most other Christians don't consider Christian. At least the other cult members (outside of Moron's...err I mean Mormons) don't go door to door harassing people with their lies and false promises.
1. The "last days" of the apocalyptic period was to have been the restoration of the KINGDOM of Israel.
2. Omen reading (divination) was forbidden in the Bible. The role of a prophet was NOT to predict the future. Sooth-saying was forbidden in Leviticus.
4. There were hundreds of books of "Revelation". The predictions could apply to anything and everything, and NOTHING specific. Jesus said the end-times would happen in HIS generation, and he was wrong, as were ALL his followers.
5. The injunctions in the OT concerning SS behaviors has nothing to do with gay marriage. The Bible didn't even know what "gay" meant. Until the 19th Century, no human ever even thought that there were "se'xual orientations". Everyone was assumed to be straight by virtue of birth gender.
Bucky,
The test of a prophet, Deut. 18: 20-22.
what does it tell people? Presbyterians have large numbers of closet gays!! I am glad they are out of closet now.
Nope.
It tells us that Presbyterians don't follow the bible. 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10
orgjw.....thank goodness for that! At least the Prebs aren't so narrow-minded to be following a 2000 year old, bronze age mythological fairy tale. Good for them!
Who would even consider going to a doctor that only used medical knowledge from 2000 years ago?
Why would anyone think the bible is the best knowledge regarding morality?
Just think what a different world this would be if everyone followed Matthew 7:12. Treat others the way you should be treated. (Written over 2000 years ago.)
Christopher Columbus in 1492 was worried that the earth was flat. Interesting though. The bible stated in Isaiah 40:22 that the earth was a circle. By the way that was written over 2700 years ago.
orgjw.
Ancient Greek mathematicians had already proven that the Earth was round, not flat. Pythagoras in the sixth century B.C.E. was one of the originators of the idea. Aristotle in the fourth century B.C.E. provided the physical evidence, such as the shadow of the Earth on the moon and the curvature of the Earth known by all sailors approaching land. And by the third century B.C.E., Eratosthenes determined the Earth's shape and circumference using basic geometry. In the second century C.E., Claudius Ptolemy wrote the "Almagest," the mathematical and astronomical treatise on planetary shapes and motions, describing the spherical Earth. This text was well known throughout educated Europe in Columbus' time.
Thanks for making my point. You can find valuable and correct information in a 2700 year-old-book.
And that book is not the bible, nor did Columbus doubt that the earth was round – that's why he headed West from Europe to get to India.
The concept of the "golden rule" predates the Bible and has existed in some form in most civilizations long before the the NT.
And "circles" are flat...the word you are looking for is "sphere".
round – either way, the earth is not flat.
the Hebrew king Solomon lived in the 9th century BCE and proposed a round earth. this predates both Pythagoras and Anaxagoras by hundreds of years. so yes we rightfully credit the Lord blessing Solomon with wisdom. there is more wisdom in the bible than in science textbooks.
awanderingscot
"there is more wisdom in the bible than in science textbooks."
LOL. The Bible says that the ratio pi is equal to 3.0. Our space program would have totally FAILED if it believed that in the Bible., Get real.
Wise Solomon?
He's the one who said "spare the rod and spoil the child". Do you know how Solomon's son turned out?
Son, Rehoboam, as ruler, said:
"My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins [ahem!].
11 And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions." – 1 Kings
And the brat, Rehoboam, then proceeded to lose half of the kingdom.
orgjw
"round – either way, the earth is not flat."
A frisbee is round. A dinner plate is round. A penny is round. And flat.
The ancient Hebrews had a word (or words) for sphere (or ball). They did not use that in describing the Earth.
Presbyterians are no more/ less of a Christian denomination than the JW's.
Sorry.
Christian means "Christ Like". Just because they call themselves Christian does not mean they are Christ Like. Obviously from the stand they choose to take, they are not Christ Like.
Shunning family because of "belief" IS "Christ like".....I don't want to be "Christ like" he was a bit of an asshat.
If someone engages in behavior that you don't agree with, it does not mean you don't love that person. It means that you don't approve of that behavior. I have relatives that are smokers. I don't approve of that behavior. It does not mean that I don't love them. However, when they are smoking, I choose not to be around them. I don't let them smoke in my house. Nor do I let any of their friends smoke in my house.
orgjw.....your book doesn't claim to send smokers to a fiery eternity either.
That's right. The bible does not state that people are going to fiery hell where they will be tormented forever. That would not be a loving God. Jehovah is a loving God. This is where the Apostasy comes in – making up false stories. When the Bible was written, it was in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. For instance Hell. This word in Greek is Hades. Hades during bible times was just the common grave of mankind. The Hebrew word for Hell was Sheol – common grave.
orgjw....well...several of the other bible 'experts' on this blog page (theo, Kermit, fred, finisher1, salero), would totally disagree with you. You guys should probably get together and figure out what your book truly does say and mean.
I'm no expert. I read and study the bible. That would include the historical aspect of it. After all, it is a historical book.
orgjw....very little of the bible is a history book. Anybody that thinks the story of Noah is history is a bit of a loon. Anybody that thinks the earth is only 6000 years old is a lot of a loon. The bible was written by men, compiled by men, with many parts left out, and contains very little that can actually be verified. However....it is your right to believe that your book is any different than the Quran, or any other mythological account of any god. I don't, because it is just full of holes.
orgjw, That's the problem with the "no true scotsman" argument; other sects do not consider JW's "true" christians. And with 40,000 sects that a lot of not true christians.
That is true. Lots of "so-called Christians." However, Jesus said that you would know my disciples by the fruit that they bear. Obviously if oppose the very principles and moral code that Jesus lived by, you certainly can't call yourself "Christ-Like. Unfortunately, "fake Christians" are turning people away from Jehovah GOD." If you study the bible, you would see how mankind is supposed to live.
orgjw: "If you study the bible, you would see how mankind is supposed to live."
And this is precisely what other Christians say that you should do when they disagree with your interpretation of the Bible. Cut with the self-righteous, sanctimonious BS. You're sounding an awful lot like Rainer Braendlein or Theo Phileo.
I am not self-righteous. I'm not sure who I'm supposed to be like. However, I am sorry that you are bitter. It sounds as though you really dislike me. Sounds like you're judging me??
I will repeat this because it appears you did not understand what I said.
Presbyterians are not any more/less valid a denomination than the JW's.
Sorry.
What determines the validity? Again, Christian means "Christ Like". That means you follow the teachings of Christ. Simple- straightforward. The fact is most Christendom hate Jehovah's Witnesses. But that is to be expected. Jesus said that they hated me they will hate you also.
Is smoking a "belief"? I specifically referred to shunning on the basis of belief. What do the jw's do to a family member that no longer accepts the teaching of the Watchtower society? Thay shun them...just like Jesus taught.
@orgjw: "Just because they call themselves Christian does not mean they are Christ Like. Obviously from the stand they choose to take, they are not Christ Like."
That's an example of a self-righteous, sanctimonious att.itude. You think your interpretation of the Bible is better than anyone else's.
No. People say a lot of things about the bible. It's all hearsay. It is sad. The fact is most people don't study the bible. Yet these are the same people who you would listen to and decide that you hate them. You call them bigots. You assume that GOD is hateful also as a result of their actions. You would rather believe those people. I'm just trying to show you in the bible what it says. This is not interpretation. It is fact. Historical fact. About Words. Simple.
orgjw....so once again, we have a person here that has it all figured out. Simple. If it's so simple, why are there 40,000 different sects that read the same book you do and interpret differently than you? How arrogant of you to make such a bold pompous a-ssumption. You don't know any more about what the interpretation of 'words' written by men 2000 years ago than anybody else. You have no more cognitive powers than I or anybody else. You are just guessing, that's all. It is not history, and it most certainly is not clear, or all you bible thumpers would be on the same page.
the bible is a book of history. Do your research. Look up the word Sheol and Hades and Hell. Look in the Encyclopedia. Actually a lot of this is well known. People just choose to ignore it. It makes for good hate language the other way.
orgjw.....well, I see you conveniently sidestepped the question. If your book is so clear and simple, why are there 40,000 sects that all use the exact same bible but with various interpretation. And, just what makes you think that only you 'got it right'? You can call it history all you want, but it has been debunked many times over. The story of Noah is not history. The story of Adam and Eve is not history. There are far too many contradictions in the bible to take it seriously. But, of course, you are free to believe whatever craziness that you want. There are people in this country right now that believe that Xenu the space overlord dropped frozen bodies into volcano's.
Well, to be fair, org, you're not showing the Presbyterians any love, yourself. And that's decidedly not Christ-like either.
I am showing them love. I am not calling them names or speaking harshly of them. I'm simply saying that they are taking a stand that is totally in opposition to the bible. Again, they can do what they want to do. Jehovah gives us all a choice.
orgjw....and you just happen to know more about what's in the bible than all those dumb Presbyterians, right? If they could just read and interpret the bible exactly as you do, they would just see the light. You probably have no idea how arrogant that is. You are not the final word on interpretation of the bible.
orgjw
Skip the hypocrisy. Read a Bible and try to find the Golden Rule.
orgjw,
It tells us that they apparently try to follow the Golden Rule so it's understandable why other Christians might be upset.
The Presbyterians are growing up. A novel and painful experience for the very religious, but dealing constructively with reality enormously improves their lives and those of their children.
Nothing "novel and painful experience" for Presbyterians; they have been hiding in closets for centuries, they just drummed up courage and came out, nothing more.
Funny how a timeless, all-knowing god changes its mind isn't it? It is almost as though we created him in our image and not vice-versa, isn't it?
man created in the image of God was 'woman within man'- no separation.
though you are correct, God has repented = changed His mind before.
under what conditions have God changed His mind – this shows the beauty of God, that He can have a relationship with a human being where they can actually communicate and God seeks and honors their opinion. this is the realm of friendship that God seeks to have with us. Great isn't it!
LMAO. "God changes". Really ? Do you idiots ever *think* about what you say ? That means your god exists within, (and is subject to) time, and always was. Oops. It cannot have created the very Reality it needs to exist within. Change also refutes "eternal". Thanks for demonstrating so clearly you have no clue what you mean when you use those words. So much for "absolute moral values". As you see, new-man is a poe, trying to make religionists look idiotic.
you changing the context of my sentence was done only to serve your lying and misleading purpose(s). [I guess if you change your mind about flying to NY tomorrow that means you have changed].
God is the same yesterday, today and forever!
You and all of us should be very thankful that He does change His mind (in the realm of friendship with a righteous person).
I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give Him no rest, till He establish, and till He make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
A friend will have the boldness to remind God of His WORD and will give Him no rest until He reconciles all things to Himself. Is God waiting for a generation to move beyond servant hood and to manifest the boldness of His sons and daughters ? Will these sons and daughters reach the point of saying "enough is enough" concerning the calamities of the earth!
new-man,
Of course God changes. That's why he no longer requires us to kill each other for a LONG LIST of reasons.
An omniscient god would have known what he was going to think in the future. You really are a poe, aren't you ?
Jehovah GOD has not changed his mind. 1 Corinthians 6:9.
Yes he has .... Harry Potter 2 :18
And clearly he did many times. He said he "regretted" what he did in the Noah story. It says many places he "got angry". Why, if I didn't know any better, I might just think you have a very emotionally labile deity. Oh wait. You do.
And of course, say something and use a Babble quote, and that must MEAN it's therefore true. Uh huh.
orgjw,
in the context of 1Cor , I believe you misunderstood my post. I wasn't implying God has changed His mind regarding sin-of any kind.
I was simply replying to the O.P. that indeed God has repented before. "Moses succeeded in persuading Yahweh not to destroy the people. And while he was not able to get a grant of forgiveness for their sins, at least he did get a postponement of the punishment of their sins. And that postponement was very important because it extended the time of visitation of the sins upon the people until a very key element was in place.
And that key element was that "God will provide himself a lamb." And in the fullness of time, that Lamb, Jesus Christ was born into the world.
Now, as we look back over the various events with Balaam, Saul, Abraham, and Moses, we can see the key is what was in their hearts and this was the deciding factor in how the matter was resolved."
dayspring
re·pent
riˈpent/
verb
feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin.
Who did God repent to? What wrongdoing or sin did He commit?
I would venture a guess that it would be drowning His entire creation.
Akira,
the meaning of repent was already posted. It means to change your mind.
Repent – change your mind about God. He is a God of Love, Mercy, Righteousness, Forgiveness...
newman
I checked several definitions of repent, and not one mentions any gods. One does not need to believe in gods to be repentant.
Are you trying to take over another word and make it all "christian" like you do with "scripture"?
Ah I didn't see where you posted your definition. Else I would never have posted the dictionary definition of it.
igaftr,
I'm sorry. I should have been more specific.
In scripture where it says 'Repent, because the kingdom of heaven is at hand'... paraphrasing it's saying, Change your mind about God.
I did not mean to imply that in all cases the word REPENT means to change your mind about God. sorry for that.
to repent of anything just means you've changed your mind about that thing, you've made a 180 degree turn, or you're doing the opposite of the thing you've repented of.
50 years from now when gay marriage is law in all 50 states and in all developed countries, Christians will be taught that is an expression of the Lord's Golden Rule. This will be a normal adaptation to retain membership levels in the various denominations. There will be a few that cling to today's ideas, but they will be sloughed off as extremists.
Not long ago some used the bible to justify slavery. Now, there are any number of apologetic explanations/interpretations of what the bible means on slavery to match contemporary mores. The same will be true for gay relationships, women's roles in society, etc. the churches are nothing if not adaptable.
Speaking of adaptable, they will also make the 13.8B year observable universe and evolution fit in with new 'interpretations'.
"Speaking of adaptable, they will also make the 13.8B year observable universe and evolution fit in with new 'interpretations'.
--------------------
A very large number of religious people already do just that. What's wrong with that?
My point had nothing to do with 'wrong'. It's about how 'truth' is divined differently over time.
Relevant: PCUSA statistics...
1983: 3.1 million
2013: 1.7 million
much of those are churches leaving for more biblically conservative denominations like the PCA (1980s), EPC (the last 10 years), and even forming a new denomination in the ECO (2012).
All of this is not surprising to me. You see the bible already foretold how the Governments and people would turn against GOD. All of this is prophecy coming true. It just strengthens my faith.
The biblical prophecies are nothing important and mean zip in the real world. If those prophecies weren't fulfilled, dolts like you would continue to attempt to make them come true to please your imaginary friend. Did you once consider why the men who wrote the bible might have put crap like that in? Did it once occur to you that it might have been to keep the gullible in line so they wouldn't stray? The men who the book were not educated but they certainly saw a side of mankind that they could play on. Very sad to see grown adults needing imaginary friends and living on faith (belief without evidence)-that simply tells us you have no care about what is happening around you or about mankind...such a weak–minded world you reside in.
TP says: "The biblical prophecies are nothing important and mean zip in the real world."
I say: Biblical prophecies make no sense to those who are void of the Spirit of God.
ya, now they can get some more people in to tithe.
To the presbuteros it must be asked what happens if they continue to exchange evil for good? If they are willing to make concession to this area, where does it stop? I would love to know their justification in permitting this within their church. This is a question JUST for the presbuteros of the church, or at the very least for those laymen in that denomination. What is their justification for giving approval for what Almighty God calls sin?
Why on earth do you even care if it is not your chosen denomination?
Because they call themselves Christians, and in so doing, they are placing themselves into the larger body of Christ which encompasses all of Christendom – and the Bible tells us that we are to judge those within the body. And I would call out their leaders to justify their actions before God.
Wow....just.....wow.
gulliblenomore,
Why is my att.itude shocking? It's Biblical.
Proverbs 12:1 – Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.
1 Corinthians 5:12 – For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. (Deuteronomy 13:5, 17:7, 12, 21:21, 22:21, 1 Corinthians 5:2)
Matthew 18:15-17 – “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 – Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.
2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 – If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
You should really worry about your own relationship with God and let others worry about theirs.
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you.
If you are not Presbyrterian, what they do is of no concern to you, Theo.
then don't judge those who are not apart of your group of sycophants, who want to get married. when Christians have pushed to pace laws to prevent non Christians from getting married it offensive. the faith i belong to is totally OK with well sexuality in general.
"The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you."
----------------
Very true, and as I make my comments on a public forum, if anything I do is not in accordance with the word of God, then I invite correction.
"If you are not Presbyrterian, what they do is of no concern to you, Theo."
-----------------
The Bible speaks against sectarianism, and knows nothing of denominations. If their claim is that they are Christians, then they are under the mandates of church discipline.
Every time I read one of Theo's posts I'm a little happier that I'm an atheist. Thank you, Theo.
There are plenty of Christians who completely disagree with you. There is no reason to think you are right and they are wrong. Yours is no more than an opinion about god...same as theirs.
Theopatra: "Why is my att.itude shocking? It's Biblical."
There really isn't anything quite as disgusting as self-righteousness.
What the Presbyterians do is of no consequence to you, Theo.
It doesn't impact you at ALL if it is not your denomination.
You can help write a sermon about it for your own church denouncing their actions.
"The Bible speaks against sectarianism", but oops, he forgot to say where.
Theo Phileo
Why is my attitude shocking? It's Biblical.
you know now that i think about it, isn't this the same argument the KKK use.
Because they claim to represent the Almighty GOD. They clearly DO NOT. The God they represent is in 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4.
Does everyone get that? Poor wee Theo doesn't want us responding to his question of how these people can't support him in his hate and bigotry...could it be that they're not as uneducated as he is? Could it be that they care about their fellow human, unlike him?
I'm not sure what backwoods church you attend Theo but in reality land, you're a bigot and a hateful one at that.
It's not that I don't WANT you to respond. It's just that since you stand outside the body of Christ, you are not qualified to respond.
Fvck you, Theo! Who the hell do you think you are telling anybody on a public forum that they are not qualified to respond to anything written here? Get off your high fvcking horse and join the rest of the real society.
And given that you are not this god, you are not qualified to speak on behalf of it. I'm as qualified as you...the difference is that I grew up and don't require vindictive imaginary friends and their immoral guide books to help me be a good person.
gulliblenomore,
Please tell me how a non-believer can explain the actions of those within Christendom? Especially as it pertains to theological motivations and Biblical context?
Theopatra: [blah] [blah] [blah] ..someone else is not a Christian..[blah] [blah] [blah] [blah] ....
Maybe between Theo's Westminster Divinyls and Rainy's baptism requirements, they can come up with a recipe to keep these ants off of my step, but I doubt it...
As usual Theo,
you confuse agreement with understanding.
I understand what the bible says, I just don't agree with what it calls moral.
Ah yes, the secret insiders cult. You just don't understand.
Here in Canada, the Anglican church blesses same gender unions.
They wrote a lengthy report outlining their stance called The St. Michael Report.
An excerpt:
" Some Anglicans believe that the blessing of same-s.ex unions strikes at the root of the Church’s being and gospel message because they interpret these relationships as contradicting the teaching of Scripture, and thus putting the salvation of people in such relationships in jeopardy (e.g., Rom 1.18-32; I Cor 6.9). On the other hand, other Anglicans maintain that a faithful biblical theology calls for same-s.ex blessings (i.e., that the biblical passages usually cited as prohibiting same-s.ex relationships do not contemplate the contemporary ideal of lifelong committed same-s.ex unions). They would argue that we fail the Gospel mandate when we uphold social taboos and systems that serve to keep people who seek such from fellowship with God (Rom 3:21-25; II Cor 5:16-21). "
Doc, thank you for the honest reply. That's the kind of response I was looking for. It would surely be nice to sit across the table with the people who wrote that statement and discuss the created order, and the unchanging nature of God's moral law.
It does make me wonder if those of the presbuteros of the Presbyterian church said something similar. Which, in effect, accepts social norms over God's mandates. I can appreciate the ec.umenical nature of what they're doing, but I don't find justification in sacrificing plain Biblical teaching just so that we can all sit around a fire and sing "coom by yah."
" Healthy, heterose.xual Anglican couples may, and some do, decide not to have children. Such relationships bear fruit in community service, Christian ministries, and the pursuit of holiness. Does the lack of gender complementarity in ho.mos.exual Anglican couples hinder them from making the same commitment to one another in the eyes of God and in the view of the Christian community? Such same-s.ex relationships, founded upon mutual dedication and love, seek God’s blessing upon their life together, to the exclusion of all others, until parted by death. "
he Church aspires to enter into the fullness of truth through her continuing reflection on Scripture and doctrine under the direction of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes this means that when we seek to be faithful to Scripture and doctrine in changing circu.mstances, we may find ourselves led by the Spirit to new insights that affirm or contradict our past practices. The Abolition of the British slave trade in the 19th century is a classic example of the church reversing its approval of a practice seen as untouchably sanctioned in Scripture.
That is perfectly correct. A sin is a sin, even if WE, human make it good
Your Church excommunicates adulterers right?
Those who remain in lifestyles of unrepentant sin, as a last resort, that sinner can put put out of the church in order to discipline them to repentance as well as to disassociate them from the church so that an unbelieving world will not look at an unrepentant sinner and make the as.sumption that THAT is what God is like.
For that is the duty of every believer – we are ambassadors of God, and as His image bearers, we are to show an unbelieving world what God is like, and when we live in sin, that is our witness – that THIS is what God is like. So they are put out of the church (if they remain unrepentant) so that the world might know that they are not a part of the body.
"For that is the duty of every believer – we are self-rightous, sanctimonious ambassadors of God"
**FIXED**
Yes you are "ambassadors of your deity". How scary. Religious fanatics every day commit crimes in the name of their gods, and you are no different dangerous Theo. For thousands of years, people convinced, just as you are, that YOU have *the truth* have all stomped their impotent little feet, and asserted the very same thing. They were ALL wrong. You are no different.
Love, Salvation, Justice, and Tolerance are inherent and bona fide in Christianity.
Whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ is a Christian and Saved; blasphemy is the ONLY unforgivable sin.
Vic,
Does it seem logical and FAIR to you that Hitler can be forgiven for KILLING MILLIONS of people but others cannot be forgiven for WORDS?
Observer...just one more of the many reasons you have to avoid that crazy cult at all costs.
Faith/Belief in God is not a simple matter, and no one can deceive God. Only God knows who is a true believer, and only God can Justly Judge.
Vic,
You didn't answer the question.
Observer....yes he did. He said "I don't have a valid answer for that question"......it was implied
Vic.....it is an extremely simple matter. Either you need godly answers and invent a faith based relationship with a deity, or you continually search out answers for the hard questions in life and demand proof before you accept any dogma from anybody. Simple.
If indeed you want God to be "fair" then everyone will go to hell.
Then god failed totally with the whole creation thingy.
All us humans who seem to be SO IMPORTANT and made in his image are all deserving of eternal torture.
I'm laughing on the inside.
I'm actually laughing on the outside. This guy is truly delusional.
Theo....not "fair", just not a dick. Seems that is too much for your god.
Theo Phileo,
Fair? You mean like cutting off the hands of women who touch the genitals of a man attacking their husband?
Fair? Like selling your young daughters into slavery?
lol. Get serious.
God can do anything... except stand the presence of sin.
God can do anything... except create inheritently good creations that still have free will.
God can do anything... except forgive the transgressions of others, unless blood is shed...
God can do anything.....except make himself known
God can do anything.....except prevent little children from getting horrible diseases
Theo: Is ignorance that blissful?
Vic....Then put me down for a big helping of blasphemy.....Fvck your god. He is a bully and a tyrant and I want nothing to do with his worthlessness.
Blasphemy is not simply just words against God, namely the Holy Spirit; it is understood that blasphemy is indicative of unbelief, hence, unbelief is the ONLY unforgivable sin.
It's a damn thought crime!! Grow up!
So anyone who is indoctrinated into another religion before they ever hear of your god is damned.
the only bad thing is not to be one of us. do you listen to your self.
its times like these i look up the sun and am glade my gods love is actually unconditional. check it i can curse her name and she still loves me, i can follow a different god and she still loves me i can be a Christian genocidal dick and she still loves me.
she loves you and you can keep being an asshole, because that's what she does her light will always shine
the sun is greater then your god.
Basing rewards and punishments on "belief" is the action of an immoral asshat. I wouldn't worship such a god even if he did exist.
So no matter how good of a life I live, a thought crime is enough to doom me to hell? And you somehow find this moral? If heaven did exist and were full of people like you, I'd rather not be there. I'm not worried though, nor are many others...you're blowing smoke with nothing more than a 2000 year old fallacious book to back you...talk about a weak position!
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
Blasphemy is my favorite.
The future is obvious. Education is defeating the ignorance of bigotry.
Just like discrimination against women and the handicapped in the Bible has been replaced with equality, the same is rapidly happening for discrimination against gays.
The battles are being won and the war will be over before long.
Good for the presbys. Apparently they got the memo reminding them that religions only stay relevant when they change with the times.
“I have to wonder at what point the people fighting to protect marriage will realize that traditional couples haven’t exactly been doing too good a job of it so far.” ― Dan Pearce
True.
I have to wonder why the thought is SS marriage is threatening to OS marriage.
Doesn't really impact hetero marriage at all.
If Gay and Lesbian people are given civil rights, soon everyone will want them”
― James Howe
First the military, now marriage...
Why do gays want in on society's worst insti.tutions?
Seriously
Somebody complained about my comments?
I don't give it a damn!
When you will not learn through my words God will educate/chastise you through the rod.
Rainey....it's time you learned the awful truth. Nobody gives a c-rap about anything you have to say. You are a kook.
Evidently, according to Rainy, God's job is to be the world beat cop to make sure that Rainy's words have the attention of everyone.
Shouldn't he be standing on a street corner somewhere instead of wasting his time here?
Street corner? I thought sewer rats like this haunted the sewers and not society. Doesn't he just make his imaginary friend sound so warm and fuzzy? Like the abusive husband almost...'Do as I say or else?'.
Rainier, there were two posts of the sane blog, and they deleted one of them.
ALL of our comments are gone.
Your sense of self-importance is intact, I see.
You stating you don't give a damn shows why someone complained. You're not here to debate or converse, you're merely here to hate and scream about how you're right and everyone else is wrong. It probably doesn't help that you will post the same old rhetoric 4 or 5 times over on the same article. We know you don't care...that is obvious and for that I pity you...such a closed-minded, ignorant life to live.
Stop feeling so persecuted...it's very immature.
TP, there were 2 of the same articles to begin with. One was taken down, and unfortunately it was the one with the most comments.
Thank you for clarifying that.
And it is more like 4-5 times on the same page!
Vanity.
Vanity? You are too nice....I would say pompous arrogance and stupidity.
I don't give it a damn!
(we don't have such a splendid term in Germany; I enjoy to use it)
Of course you don't...you're as loony as they get...a blemish on humanity!
That sounds, as if you would like to behead me.
No sorry, I'm not one of your ilk...I don't believe in harming others or wishing eternal torture on them simply for not following a cult-book. What I do wish is that you'd grow up, face the reality of the world and stop the hatred and bigotry. Maybe try following the Golden Rule.
I also wish that you become healthy. Fare you well!
Rainer Helmut Braendlein
Obviously, God didn't educate you to follow the Golden Rule or to not judge others.
Pick and choose.
I observe that the activity of your brain has fallen to about zero. You are nearly brain-dead.
You want to be treated in the manner you treat others?
As you wish.
Akira
Don't forget the most important part of what Jesus said when he summed up the way: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
When you get the first one right the second is who you are, a kind loving person. Why is it not enough to simply to show love and kindness? It will make things in this life better for sure, but God has much more to give than you can imagine.
Although non believers think (without any evidence whatsoever) that our awareness is tethered to the physical it is not. This is the main concern of the Bible and why Jesus mentioned loving God. When you love God with all you are then you are tethered to God not this world this life this way but THE WAY which leads to life. Your thoughts and awareness remain and in Christ they continue in Christ. Jesus wanted you attention to the fact good and evil are eternally separated and upon death the good continues in Christ. Everything else is not tethered to something eternally good.
fred,
If a person doesn't demonstrate the second, that means they must be failing at the first.
bostontola
Yep. Loving God comes first throughout the Bible because what follows without it is meaningless from an eternal standpoint (i.e. the kingdom of God).
Jesus said who is good but God, only God is good. This is evidenced by the simple observation of all the believers in the Bible with the exception of Jesus and certainly everyone I have ever met and certainly as to myself. You cannot try to be good as this is what the Bible calls works. Trying to be kind and loving is good for others but it is a wasted effort. In order to be good that must be who you truly are. Jesus made a way where being loving and loving God is who we become. When you follow that way you find yourself continually transformed which the Bible calls sanctification. Now your spirit becomes more and more inline with Christ (the will of God).
The language of the Bible is by man and addressed to the audience when written who understood it. Take the serpent in the Garden of Eden which seems foolish in our culture and time yet well understood the first group of Hebrew. In the New Testament, Paul is an example of written expression that turns people off today yet the truth is in there. If you Love God with all your heart, mind and strength the truth that transcends all time and culture is open to you. Because as you grow in the way of God you see reality as God sees it not as our culture (world) wants us to see it.
fred
Jesus ALLEGEDLY said.
Men said god said.
There is still no indications of any gods, so all you have is a work of men, that claims to speak for "god.
" When you follow that way you find yourself continually transformed..."
There is certainly no evidence on these pages of that happening.
midwest rail
Nothing changes as evidenced on this page and the Bible. In the beginning man refused Gods way (man went for desire other than Gods way as symbolized in the forbidden fruit), all the generations of the chosen ones and today with the Christians acting every bit as bad as those before. In the Old Testament the Law revealed mans sinful nature as they would not keep it. In the New we have the law in simple terms love God and love others plus we have the Holy Spirit that reminds us yet we fail and go after other desires. This is the nature of the knowledge of good and evil in man to choose other than good.
Our journey in the physical brings awareness of just how far from the image of God (good) we have drifted and that we cannot handle this knowledge of good and evil. That has been the case since the beginning. If we cannot humble ourselves so as to realize this fundamental truth we certainly cannot humble ourselves before God or anyone else which is how we got this way in first place.
igaftr
"There is still no indications of any gods, so all you have is a work of men, that claims to speak for "god."
=>the gods of men are everywhere and it is easy to tell who created them. The on true God was not created. If you can show me a god from any other religion that was not fashioned out of that which already existed you have a case. Until that time the Bible and the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus stands Divine.
=>The image of God is in man from the beginning as shown in Jesus. Jesus was human in physical form yet the full radiant Glory of God was on him. This is the image of God. We have been given a clear image of God in man so there can be no doubt. What do you have against the way Jesus made clear to this world?
fred
"just how far from the image of God (good) we have drifted"
Hilarious, considering it is man who creates the image of god.
Each person who believs in a god or gods, has in their imagination, what they think god is. It is different for EVERY single person, and not one of them can show this god or gods exist oUTSIDE of the imagination.
You think you have drifted from the "image of god"?...simply imagine him to suit yourself better...as all believers do.
Fred,
I am not the one who needs that lecture. Next time please address it to the one who needs to be reminded, not the one who actually actively tries to practice Mathew 7:12.
igaftr
You are absolutely right. We (myself included) find that gray area in the Word of God because we do want it our way. Eventually we will drift so far from the image we can no longer see it. Look at how God is pictured today, how Jesus is pictured today.
Anyone that is driven towards the truth will begin to approach that image and sometimes by the grace of God it finds them. Take for example the criminal on the cross with Christ. He recognized it and said to Jesus "you are innocent we deserve this, remember me when you get to heaven." Jesus replied today you will be with me in paradise.
Assuming you have loved someone before you know that change of state in heart. This is the state where you are tethered to the other person and it is those thoughts, feelings and emotive attachments which last. There is no evidence one way or the other as to what becomes of them. The Bible and Jesus very clearly said you want to be tethered to something that lasts. Death is a natural process for the physical but what is the nature of the non physical. Tethered to God is a presence that already exists outside of this physical thus it transcends death. Jesus is trying to tell us something very important. When it comes to the non physical I trust Jesus as no one else has shown the power, understanding and love for our life. I know of no other that had greater presence in our lifetime or the world.
Fred
There are over 400 "one true" gods.
As far as any can show, all gods are made by men.
Everything you stated about YOUR god, is based on the works of MEN, with no indication any gods had anything to do with it. All you said is nothing but baseless belief.
The bible has only the authority men assign to it, as with any gods.
You imagine your god has authority. Nothing indicates your god exists outside of your imagination. The god the next guy imagines is different that the one you imagine. In this respect, no two gods are alike, and each god is exactly what ONE person imagines.
Why is that so hard for you to understand.?
Akira
Sorry if I misspoke, but I was addressing the importance of Love God with all your heart, mind and strength as that first for Jesus and top priority for life eternal. Jesus is with the Father because his way is Gods way. Jesus said we must be born again. This is a spiritual rebirth a child learning to walk in the way we were designed. That is the kingdom of God. Why would anyone choose to be bound to this world.
igaftr
You miss the point. All the other gods look like and are made of stuff men know about or imagine. The God of Abraham is nothing of the sort. Any image you have God is wrong as God is not of substance known to man. The best we have is an indication that God is spirit of sort but even that is a poor description. Jesus was a man and the Glory of God was radiant in him. This is a very big difference and why it is easy for me to mark off all other gods that clearly are of man and my man.
Science does not have any evidence to support what becomes of our non physical essence (I call it soul but atheists oppose that so I term it awareness and various emotive expressions or feelings or thoughts).
Fred,
You misspoke. Apology accepted.
Ok, they got rid if one of the duplicate threads.
Unfortunately, it was the one with the most comments.
Yay! One of the many religious cults will 'allow' citizens to get married. Whew! That is such a relief. For a minute there, I thought the loopholes in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution would prevent American citizens from Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
Marriage really isn't a church issue to begin with. Set aside the legal part of it, which has nothing to do with the church but marriage or some form of it has been happening for much longer than Christianity has been around.
Kudos to any Christian church that stands against outdated doctrine and gives due respect to the happiness and rights of same gender couples. It's pleasant to see the change.
I have to wonder at the religious groups who band together and throw great amounts of time and money against the legalization of same-gender marriage.
Do they think they will get extra points in the afterlife?
I'm not mocking, either. I truly don't understand how some couple's marriage across the country impacts anyone in any meaningful way.
Akira...it doesn't. The people who are protesting it are certifiably nuts. Nothing else.
I wonder how they reconcile that with the "do unto others" edict.
If you haven't seen Lewis Black's routine 'gay bandidos'... I highly recommend it...
Love Lewis Black! Will look for it.
Akira
Nany of the proponents I've heard are trying to save people from themselves. They seem to think that making it legal will somehow promote the behavior, and they think it is sinful.
If that were true, why aren't they lobbying to abolish divorce?
Their thinking is flawed.
Are Presbyterians Christian?
According to 1 John 3:4-10 where no Christian practices a lifestyle marked by a habitual sin, then by giving hearty approval to those whom the Bible claims are condemned through their sin (Romans 1:32), then they not only share in their sin, but also in their condemnation.
In short, all those who approve of what the Bible calls sin is NOT a Christian.
Theo....your musty book of fairy tales regards way too much as sin. It also has no idea what century we are in. Quoting from such a book is no more useful than me quoting from Harry Potter. Both are meaningless when dealing with life.
Of course this is just Theo's opinion on what is sin from Gullible's Travels. All different kinds of Christians have their own ideas about what is morally correct – which makes the whole concept of objective (divine) morality a joke.
So ..... no one who divorces and marries again could be christian.
Got it.
Wrong. In 1 John 3:4-10, he refers to sin in the present tense, indicating continuous, habitual action.
He is not referring to occasional acts of sin, but rather to established and continual patterns of sinful behavior. Believers will sometimes sin (Romans 7:14-25)—even willfully—but they will not and cannot sin habitually and persistently as a way of life (cf. Romans 6:4-14; Galatians 5:24; Ephesians 2:10).
Not wrong.
The second marriage should not be recognized by your church, and therefore you are committing exactly the same sin as the gays are.
What churches perform legal divorces?
Yes, Boston, they are Christians.
Presbyterians tend to be less judgemental than a lot of other Christian denominations.
They try to work together with other churches and have good relations with Anglicans especially (another sect that performs same gender marriages here in Canada).
They're guano inane literalists like the Baptists, nor are they as hierarchical and dogmatic as the Catholics.
Ever hear of a Presbyterian holy war?
But of course, because of their attempts to be inclusive of other Christians and even *gasp* non religious people in their charitable works and their marked lack of spiteful condemnation from fiery pulpits, fundamentalist Christians consider them to be apostates, heretics, false prophets etc.
CORRECTION:
They're NOT guano insane literalists like the Baptists
That could be true of most Baptists, Doc, but most major denominations including Baptist have a insane literalist fundy side and a moderate side. For instance, perhaps the most moderate Baptists might very well be members of AWAB: http://www.awab.org
Certainly though, the Southern Baptist Convention – the largest Baptist denomination globally – consistently falls into the insane fundy category..lol.
Topher, bless his heart, would flip.
I know many people of both se.xes who grew up in a Southern Baptist household but broke away from SBC and joined non-SBC Baptist churches and it was long before this issue – it was often about women's roles in the church.
The presbuteros who would allow this to happen have disqualified themselves as elders according to the specifics of 1 Timothy and Ti.tus and are requiring of church discipline in order to bring about their repentance that they might turn to the Bible and believe and teach what it and it alone says. They must disregard the dictates of society's whims and hold to the unchanging word of God.
What the Bible calls SIN must never be accepted as GOOD, but must always be rejected as sin.
Isaiah 5:20 – Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil…
2 Timothy 4:1-5 – I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accu.mulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Theo Phileo,
Skip all the HYPOCRISY,
It's legal in ALL STATES to commit ADULTERY by divorcing and remarrying.
So where is all the Christian outrage?
It's all pick-and-choose HYPOCRISY. Well donel
observer,
We've already discussed this in other areas. I will not revisit this for it has already been settled.
Theo Phileo,
Of course it's settled. Christian HYOPOCRITES IGNORE their own adulterers and the Golden Rule so they can pick on gays.
When Christians collect TENS of MILLIONS of dollars to deny their fellow Christians from remarrying (committing ADULTERY), then they and you will BEGIN to have some credibility.
Theo.....it has NOT been settled. Only in your mind. You do not hold the same disregard for adultery as you do for ga-ys, plain and simple. You are a hypocrite of the highest order. It's truly too bad that your god did not have the foresight to know that within a mere 2000 years (sarcasm on the number) slavery would be thought an horrendous act, intelligent people would realize that ga-ys are born with the se-xual inclinations they have, and women would be equal to men! I would have thought an all-knowing, all loving god would have realized these simple concepts. I'm not a god, and I know them!
What is wrong with you people....really?
It has been settled because Theo says so. And that's final. Hilariously disingenuous.
Good thing that your crazy belief system has no true power in the Secular Country you reside in or nutjobs like you would be off slaughtering these people for living the life they were born to live.
Does it feel good to be known as a Bigot?? I'm willing to wager that if your god were real, it would be dooming you to the fictional place called hell simply for not following the Golden Rule.
If you don't like living in a country that enables equal rights for all, I'm sure Iraq would be happy to have you and I'm sure there are a number of us here who would be happy to pitch in for your one-way ticket.
Sending him to Iraq will only help so much – they have internet access from there too.
As well they should.
The survey data indicates that white mainstream Protestant groups track closer and closer to the majority opinion that gay marriage should be legal. It is not surprising that they would also endorse sacramental or church sponsored gay marriage.
The hold outs continue to be white evangelical protestants and historically black protestants. I haven't double checked by from recollection Catholics are split on this issue.
In terms of secular definitions of marriage, this issue is decided. The majority opinion now supports the rights of the minority group. It's just a matter of time before secular marriage is available to gay couples everywhere in the US.
This article is posted twice and has two sets of comments.