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June 20th, 2014
10:18 AM ET
Presbyterians vote to allow same-sex marriage(CNN) - The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) voted Thursday to allow pastors to marry same-sex couples in states where it is legal. The church also voted, by an overwhelming majority, to change the language about marriage in the church constitution to "two persons" from a "man and a woman," according to More Light Presbyterians, a group that supports gay rights. To take effect, that change would need to be approved by a majority of 172 local presbyteries, which have a year to vote, the church said in a statement. However, starting Saturday, pastors can go ahead and begin marrying same-sex couples in the states that allow it, according to Toya Richards Jackson, a church spokeswoman. "The church affirmed all its faithful members today. This vote is an answer to many prayers for the Church to recognize love between committed same-sex couples," said Alex McNeill, executive director at More Light Presbyterians. FULL STORY |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Jesus Christ is still ready to set free gays from their gayness. God has a very understanding for the depravity of our human nature we have inherited from our parents and finally from Adam and Eve. God knows that we sometimes feel inclinations which we would not dare to confess publically.
I don't hate gays, and I would never harm a gay man or woman. On the contrary, I consider gays as people who are seduced by Satan who made them believe that gayness is a predisposition like being lefty. To some extent it is even true that gayness is a predisposition. It is only that we should be aware that this predisposition belongs to our sinful nature, to our general inclination to sin, to do, what God has prohibited. Gayness is not a neutral predispositon like being lefty. Being lefty is morally neutral like being small or ugly, black or white, clever or stupid, etc.
Of course, to some extent it is true: "They are born with it!" like "sam stone" would say. Yet, gays have to accept that their inclination is a consequence of Adam's fall who degenerated after the Fall. This inclination doesn't belong to man as he or she was genuinely created by God. Gayness and other sins are a result of Adam's submission to the powers of death and destruction.
When Jesus died for us on the cross he has borne our sin. He has resurrected in order to sanctify us. Through faith in Jesus we can become partakers of a new, divine nature which can gradually suppress our bad old nature, if we daily accept again the humble dwelling of Jesus in us through the Holy Spirit.
The locus in space and time, where we get connected with the releasing power of Jesus death and resurrection, is sacramental baptism or the rebirth out of Water and Spirit. There we die for the sin, and enter Christ. Dead for the sin, and being in Christ, we are able to overcome the bad inclinations of our body.
Conclusion: God doesn't hate gays, but he wants to set them free. Every gay who accepted the freeing through Jesus Christ, will come through at Judgement Day.
If you face a severe disease like cancer then regard this as God's education who uses the disease as a rod to chastise you, sot that you may not get lost, but get saved. Together with forgiveness God will give you cure – it is up to you.
Who is God's enemy?
Those are the people trying to justify or legalize gayness. That is a crime against God. That is much worse than being gay. That is a sin of the spirit, very severe. Such a people should be aware that God will chastise them very hard, and they will face no peaceful future here and beyond.
The legalization of any misbehaviour is the great crime of our time. That will not work, God will educate us by any means.
Read what really matters, and ignore the posts of the brain-dead trolls.
Rainy: "Jesus Christ is still ready to set free gays from their gayness."
LOL
Rainy: "God has a very understanding for the depravity of our human nature we have inherited from our parents and finally from Adam and Eve. God knows that we sometimes feel inclinations which we would not dare to confess publically."
LOL – way to speak for God, dou.chebag.
Rainy: "I consider gays as people who are seduced by Satan who made them believe that gayness is a predisposition like being lefty."
LOL – when trying to make a point, and one god is not enough, by all means involve as many as you need. (eyeroll)
Rainy: ".... Being lefty is morally neutral like being small or ugly, black or white, clever or stupid, etc."
LOL – interesting description..
Rainy: "gays have to accept that their inclination is a consequence of Adam's fall who degenerated after the Fall. This inclination doesn't belong to man as he or she was genuinely created by God. Gayness and other sins are a result of Adam's submission to the powers of death and destruction."
Ah – well here's your problem, Rainy. You have a preconceived notion associating gayness with sin. Christians, of course are in great disagreement with each other over that. You should read realbuckeyball's post below – you might actually learn something.
Rainy: "blah blah more and more stuff about sin blah blah blah"
Rainy: "Conclusion: blah blah blah – more stuff about sin and that gayness is a disease and – blah blah blah"
Here's my conclusion, Rainy – you're a bigot and a pretty disgusting one at that. How easily do you think people can be fooled by your inane attempts to put on a friendly face while espousing your twisted opinions about gays based on your interpretation of Gullible's Travels?
And by the way, Rainy – since you are always so hyped up on "sin", why don't you invite awanderingscot over for some mutual flagellation? I would think if you two made a concerted effort to double down on self-deprecation, according to your strange beliefs, you would be guaranteed first class seats to that big dungeon in the sky......
Rainer Helmut Braendlein
Why be such a WORLD-CLASS HYPOCRITE when you don't believe and follow Jesus and the Golden Rule?
wwjd? lol.
Jesus set everybody free 2000 years ago. yes, there are those who are still living in bondage, but that doesn't change what has already been done.
It's a finished work! Everything that God will ever do for you has already been done. One just has to appropriate (receive) what's already done thru faith in the finished work.
Sin is a done issue
Healing is a done issue
Blessings of all sorts are a done issue.
You get the picture.
You are so infinite stupid.
I tell you again that Jesus sacrifice only will be of any benefit for you, if you also allow Jesus to change your life.
Learn from Jesus what real love means (real love is Jesus himself). Forget your distorted imaginations of love. Read the NT and learn from Jesus how to act in different situations. It was also love who called the Scribes and Pharisees snakes and vipers or he told them that their father would be the devil.
Real love (to the Jews): Pastor Bonhoeffer was ready to kill Hitler personally. Regretably he did not manage it.
Your love: Hitler will get into heaven despite his mass murder.
If I had the power, I would wipe out all the Islamist from the earth. I have the will, but I don't have the means.
why do you preach hate, then ask if I know Jesus' love.
love is not an emotion..
Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.
It is not co.nceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God’s love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.
Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circu.mstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end].
You talk about love like Satan. Disgusting.
No Rainer, you're wrong. I don't agree with either of your versions of the belief but new-man is a far better person than you could wish to be. It is Christians like you that will bury the belief.
Spend the eternity in the hell together with new-man.
Rainer,
have you represented Jesus well?
have you represented Jesus the way He deserves to be represented?
Oh no, Not the threat of hell!! Too fricking funny...if I don't accept that your god is real then it should seem sensible that I don't accept anything else that goes along with it and no matter how much you spew, you're not convincing anyone. If anything you're convincing people not to get involved with the belief system.
Even if hell were real, I'm quite certain your spot is already reserved.
Rainy: "You are so infinite stupid."
I get the feeling that Rainy does some drinking on Saturdays...
I am no typical Bavarian or citizen of Munich.
"I am no typical Bavarian or citizen of Munich."
So what does that mean? Do you don a cape and run around the city at night casting spells?
Indeed, I would welcome if some skilled political leaders could abolish the bad current system of bad old Munich, and establish a new, good system there. Current Munich is indeed a gateway to hell (Hitler grew the monster he was here in Munich).
I would suggest the following new names for Munich after its change:
Deutsch-Jerusalem, Deutsch-Bethlehem or the like. Or Bayerisch-Nazareth.
I am aware that the drunkards and gluttons of Munich could not endure that. They may emigrate to US.
Or Bayerisch-Nazareth.
Not after IC Farber- Bayer, surely??
I sincerely hope not. If it is, the lack of sel-awareness and cognitive dissonance would be staggering.
new-man: While I am unlikely to ever agree with your stance, I truly feel bad for you here. To be attacked by Rainer, a man who claims Christian love, is unfair. No human deserves the type of bullying that Rainer dishes out.
TP,
when I say this, it sounds religious, but it's the honest truth. I am at perfect peace reading and responding to Rainer. I am mostly dead to self, I can't imagine what Rainer or anyone could write on this board that would affect me.
that said, thanks for your concern.
Blessings!
Too bad Jesus Christ is unavailable to set you free from your irrational hatred and bigotry, Rainy. Too bad you use Jesus Christ as an excuse to be a vile, self-centered individual, Rainy. I may not believe that Jesus Christ was the son of god, but there are words attributed to him that are very wise. He doesn't deserve to have his name sullied by the likes of you, Rainy. He deserves a better representative than you, Rainy.
Blah, blah, blah!
T13 is correct. You preach hatred.
You are ill!
You worship yourself and your own biases, Rainey. You are a bad person. No amount of human sacrifice will make you a decent human being.
Read what really matters, and ignore the posts of the brain-dead trolls.
You are tacitly giving permission to ignore your hate-filled diatribes perverting the Lord's word.
Why are you actively choosing hate instead of the love Jesus preached?
"Read what really matters, and ignore the posts of the brain-dead trolls.
Yes everyone please heed Rainy's advice and ignore his posts....maybe if he realizes he is not being paid attention to he'll climb back under his rock.
If you face a severe disease like cancer then regard this as God's education who uses the disease as a rod to chastise you, sot that you may not get lost, but get saved. Together with forgiveness God will give you cure – it is up to you.
The measure you judge will be the measure you are judged.
You have lost all sense of compassion and empathy, if you had any to begin with.
Children are diagnosed with cancer all the time. What "sin" have they commited?
Shame on you.
Igaftr is correct. You revel in schaedenfruede.
I didn't read that part of Rainer's post b/c in reality I never read thru his posts, just the first lines... but this is really sad that he has chosen to post this and think this is God.
I've said before on this blog, God doesn't need me defending Him.
I will say though, what you've italicized that Rainer has written is beyond detestable and such a person does not have a true revelation of who Jesus is.
Jesus came to do the will of God, and in so doing Jesus healed all that were oppressed of the devil. so we know that sickness is oppression brought on by the devil because the devil seeks only to rob, kill and destroy people.
when the disciples couldn't heal a sick boy, Jesus didn't leave the boy with the illness and said that's the will of God. No, he scolded his disciples for lacking the faith to heal the boy, then He healed the boy- because healing and health is always the will of God.
Rainer, you need to be born-again.
New- man,
Rainier's posts are well worth reading all the way through, if only to confirm that he misrepresents the word of the Lord on a regular basis...he doesn't embody Christ's teaching at all, and indeed, typifies the stereotype of the hateful Christian. I have never seen a person who needs to constantly destroy and debase others to confirm his own sense of piety.
You walk the walk. He doesn't
what did John the Baptist say? he was schooled in the wilderness by the Holy Spirit.
8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance
"he was schooled in the wilderness by the Holy Spirit."
high on wild mushrooms more likely
Dude is SO ignorant and delusional he actually thinks there was an Adam and Eve.
Rainy: "God wants...." The Bible says..." ... "God says.." .. "God doesn't..." "God also hates..." "We need a Christian emperor..." "The California drought is not due to the gay people living there, but due to all the people there who legalize gay lifestyle."
Dictionaries should really include portions of Rainy's posts as excellent examples of: self-righteousness and sanctimoniousness.
One of the two criminals who were put up to be crucified with the Lord Jesus Christ just believed in Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ assured him Salvation.
Luke 23:42,43
"42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”" (NASB)
God's "Saving Grace" transcends and covers all our iniquities, sins and unholiness, through Faith/Belief in Him. God does not need our good works nor holiness, He saves us because He "Loves us." He made the "Ultimate Provision" for our Salvation at any cost, even the "Ultimate Sacrifice," His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
To whoever believes, please DO NOT undermine God's Supreme Work, and preach the "Message of Love, Salvation and Reconciliation," and not a message of detestation and condemnation.
Early on:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/06/20/presbyterians-vote-to-allow-same-sex-marriage-2/comment-page-1/#comment-3031711
p.s. Summer Solstice 2014 is here. Started today, June 21, 2014, at 6:51am EDT.
It is immoral to allow another person to take the punishment that you deserve.
then you will have your chance to reject what He has willing done for you, and bear the consequences yourself.
are you really that self-righteous?
I have never done anything so terrible that atonement would require a person be tortured to death. Had I done something that horrible, then I would deserve a punishment suitable to the crime. I am an adult. I am responsible for my own actions, and I have nothing but disdain for those who would let another take the punishment that they deserve.
I do NOT, however, accept the guilt from pretend crimes, made-up in an effort to frighten me into bargaining with imaginary forces in order to spare myself from an imaginary fate. I am not a child, and I am not afraid of childish things.
We are only responsible for our own actions.
Vic, since I'm usually in agreement with your posts, I guess it's my comprehension of the following, that's giving me pause.
To whoever believes, please DO NOT undermine God's Supreme Work, and preach the "Message of Love, Salvation and Reconciliation," and not a message of detestation and condemnation.
did you mean, don't undermine the 'finished work' by preaching detestation and condemnation?
"Willed, Supreme and Finished."
The "Dispensation of Grace" is God's Will and "Ultimate Provision" for our Salvation as opposed to the "Dispensation of Law" that was the shadow of Christ.
Incorporating own merits for Salvation is basically undermining and doubting God's Supreme, Willed and Finished Work for our Salvation.
Vic,
You truly believe that preaching detestation and condemnation is what Jesus meant by spreading the His ministry?
agreed.
the love of God for us is mind boggling! It's incredible! It's great! Makes a person just want to burst out in praise!
It's the LSD talking....
Rainer: "As I Have Loved You"
Imagine the night before Jesus’ crucifixion. He has communion with His disciples and washes their feet. He reveals that Judas is the one who will betray Him. He tells the disciples that He is leaving and they can’t come. Then, He speaks these words:
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (John 13:34-35)
By virtue of the fact that this would be, in part, His final words to the disciples, they had to be very important. And notice that what He said to them was in the form of a command, not a suggestion.
I am sure that everyone reading this letter has read or heard this passage many times. But in reality, most do not think that this is something they can actually do. It’s a goal that they may strive to reach with gritted teeth, but usually with little success.
It begs the question—would Jesus give His disciples a command He knew they couldn’t keep? The answer is obviously no, so why is it so hard for us today to love other people? Could it be this simple—we can’t give what we don’t have?
The majority of churches are teaching that God’s love for us is conditional. They are misrepresenting His love, and it is one of the main reasons that we as Christians are so judgmental and harsh toward other people. Consciously or not, we tend to treat people the way we believe God is treating us.
cont.
We must understand that God does not love us because we are lovely. He does not love us because we read the Bible, go to church, pay our ti.thes, or do our best to keep the command to love others as He loved us. The truth is that He loves us without conditions. That’s huge!
I grew up in a Baptist church where all that was preached was the message of evangelism. They made me feel like I had to pay God back for saving me by leading others to Jesus. It became such a part of me that I used to say this: “The sole purpose for our existence here on this earth is to lead somebody else to Jesus.”
Then the Lord spoke this to me—“If evangelism is the sole purpose for your existence, then what about Adam and Eve? They had no one to lead to the Lord, no Sunday school class to teach, no one to pray for, and no physical need of any kind.” The answer can be found in Revelation 4:11—
Thou artworthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
The original purpose of all creation was to give God pleasure. And that is still God’s purpose. Adam and Eve were created for fellowship with God. He wanted someone to love and for them to voluntarily love Him back.
awommack
Imagine there would be only three people. One of the three would harm one of the three without cause. Then I as the third one had to interfere. It would be no love, if I would simply ignore the harming of one of the two others. Love (Jesus) would require me to protect and defend the person who is harmed.
As God's love is unbiased, it is the cause for righteousness.
Imagine you would be harmed by anybody. Wouldn't you want me to help you, even if the person who harms you would have to suffer some pain by me?
Don't confuse your distorted imagination of love with real love who is Jesus himself.
What a pointless scenario, Rainer.
I think I get what you're saying.
The point though is, Enoch lived at a time when there was great wickedness in the land. Do you know what he did. He shut himself off from the people and dwelt in the presence of God, coming out occasionally to teach the people the things of God.
My point is, we're in this world, we're not of this world. You can dwell in peace in the midst of war without becoming entangled in that war because the war is among the Egyptians and you are not an Egyptian. Let the Egyptians see your peace and come to seek the God of peace who sustains you in perfect peace.
Blessings!
You will get into the hell together with your harmful delusion.
Do you really assume that wimps and wusses like you would get into heaven?
Then God would not be righteous.
new-man,
Don't let Rainer bother you. He's so CLUELESS that he doesn't even know what Jesus said about the Golden Rule.
Rainer,
I'm actually smiling at your comment.
Friend, as Joseph Prince would say, I am hopelessly and irrevocably saved! and guess what, I AM THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST!
I am made righteous and holy by Jesus' righteousness, holiness and obedience. When God looks at me, He sees His Son. Yes, I'm safe and secure in Christ!
Wow! that felt great!!
observer, thanks.
in reality, insults and threats and condemnations don't bother me. they usually bring a smile to my face.
as I've said, I've killed a few of Rainer's sacred cows, so I can't expect him to be too happy. But on the bright side, someone(s) will have plenty [food for thought] to eat. they just need to rid themselves of all their self-righteousness. That's the worse kind of sin actually.
newman
"they just need to rid themselves of all their self-righteousness. That's the worse kind of sin actually."
Then you need to look into the mirror, considering your posts show you are one of the most self-righteous people on here.
It is right that Jesus sacrifice was an atonement for our sins, but it was also a work of deliverance or redemption.
God wants to give as two presents at the same time; we must take both presents together. That means Jesus sacrifice will be no atonement for our sins, if we don't also accept it as work of deliverance for us. Either we take the whole present, or we will get nothing at all. Through a changing life we appreciate Jesus sacrifice in the right way,and then it is also an atonement for our sins.
Only if we allow Jesus to improve our lives day by day, his sacrifice is also an atonement for our sins.
The grace of God is costly (according to Bonhoeffer).
Interesting that you would take the word of Bonhoffer over Jesus's. Hmmm.
Bonhoeffer cited Jesus!
Jesus favoured Costly Grace. That is what brother Dietrich figured out again, and yet Luther and Augustine teached.
Jesus most certainly did not.
Augustine thought that deaf people were born out of the sin of their parents.
We now know better. Augustine was wrong on many interpretations, as you are.
Luther was a raging anti-Semitic who preached hatred.
I am unsurprised that you admire him.
You lie.
Are you seriously saying you didn't know Luther was a raging Anti-Semitic?
"On Jews And Their Lies" ring a bell?
Look up Augustine's position in deaf people.
I don't lie, Rainier.
Know your idols.
The grace of God is free. There is nothing you can do to earn it & there is nothing you can do to lose it!
That's how much God loves us!
I have never done anything so terrible that atoning for it would require that a man be tortured to death.
Honestly, why in the world would any responsible adult look at christianity and say "Yeah, old tribal law and human sacrifice! That makes sense in a world where humans have the capability to eradicate major diseases! That makes sense in a world where we have sent a man to the moon and have the capability to land exploratory craft on other planets."
How many African children could be fed by the grain which is necessary to produce the heaps of meat you consume every day – or aren't you a typical American glutton?
You are guiltless?
Rainer Helmut Braendlein
Are the people of Germany guiltless?
You don't think things through at all.
Yep. I'm guiltless. I live in my culture. They live in theirs. Certainly no individual needs to be murdered because I am an American and other people live in different lands.
Talk about a red herring...
Aren't you the typical German bigot who desires the eradication of Jews that Frederick, Luther and Hitler desired?
No?
Then knock it off with the American slurs, Rainier. You appear very foolish when you talk about a culture you know nothing about.
I only know that your materialism is worse than the crap which was made-up by Muhammad.
The US feeds the world, Rainier.
I understand that you dislike the freedoms the US provides its citizens that you want to cruelly deny those you hate, even as you hypocritically take advantage of that freedom by posting on an American website.
Tsk.
Rainer,
"[some of] You may not like this, but it’s true. Sin isn’t a problem with God anymore. It’s the church that has made it a major deal. Neither past, present, nor future sins can separate you from God.The only people who will go to hell are those who have spurned and rejected the greatest sacrifice that has ever been made. In heaven, you won’t answer for your sin; Jesus already has. You will answer for your acceptance or rejection of Jesus."
awmi
cont.
You might now be thinking, You’re just giving people a license to sin. Well, it seems to me that people are doing a pretty good job of that without a license. What I’m saying will not free you to sin; it will free you from the condemnation and the guilt that comes when you do sin.
To continue in sin is just stupid. You’ll be opening the door for Satan to have an inroad into your life (Rom. 6:16). If you do, then you will suffer the natural consequences of sin, but it will not be because of the judgment of God. If you commit adultery, you will probably lose your family, but it was you who caused it, not God.
Natural disasters are just that—natural disasters. We live in a corrupted world where bad things happen, but God isn’t the cause of them. If He were, why would He stop at New Orleans and the Gulf Coast of America? Surely all of us deserve the judgment of God. But, praise God, we don’t get what we deserve.
Before I learned that the war was over, I used to say, “If God doesn’t judge America, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.” Now I say, “If God judges America, He will have to apologize to Jesus.” Thank God for Jesus!
awmi
newman, I was going to offer you and Rainy spots to square off on the all-new Non-Celebrity Christian Deathmatch (to provide voice-overs for the claymation of course). But you might be more appropriate on another show I'm thinking of producing – the new Non-Celebrity Christian Mental Gymnastics Team America!
You surpass even Muhammad, the storyteller.
You make up your own version as you go along pretty well yourself, Rainier.
And I see you had to get a dog into another faith to bolster your own. Is it that shaky that you have to depend on ad hominems to get your faith across?
In America inmates of nuthouses seem to have access to the Web.
friend,
I'm not your enemy. if you think I am wrong, simply point out where I've erred.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
In Germany, the MINDLESS BIGOTRY of Hitler is still around.
You are an idiot!
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
Nope. If I was, I'd be a MINDLESS BIGOT.
"inmates of nuthouses"?
My goodness what a buffoon...
Rainier, why do you insist on stereotyping yourself as a hateful Christian?
Want to know who doesn't fit that stereotype? New-man.
Have some respect, for once.
And stop bashing the country that grants you the right to post your views, where apparently isn't given on your own country.
Rainy makes a great case for atheism.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
What did Jesus say IS WHAT THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS ARE ALL ABOUT?
Are that CLUELESS about what the Bible says? No wonder you don't follow Jesus.
Rainy: "The Bible says..." ... "God says.." .. "God doesn't..." "God also hates..." "We need a Christian emperor..." "The California drought is not due to the gay people living there, but due to all the people there who legalize gay lifestyle."
Dictionaries should really include portions of Rainy's posts as excellent examples of: self-righteousness and sanctimoniousness.
I don't give ...
...a damn.
We know. That's readily apparent.
Do you have any friends? Do have any family that still speaks to you? How about children? You're so hateful...I can't imagine anyone wishing to be near someone with such a stone-cold heart.
So if you get cancer, what sin will you have committed to have brought that upon you?
Who hates whom?
Do you yet want to see me beheaded? Ain't ...
I get the feeling Rainy's flagellation whip if his "friend". I just know he gave it a name – I'm curious about it's name...
Rainy: You poor poor delusional dolt! I'm not one of you, I don't wish harm upon anyone! To wish you beheaded would be to act as vicious as you and I'm sorry I could never lower myself to your level. Don't mistake my intolerance of your hatred and bigotry as hate.
We all know that the god Rainey worships is none other than Rainey himself. Poor deluded buffoon.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
What did Jesus say IS WHAT THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS ARE ALL ABOUT?
Any clue?
He simply doesn't care.
http://youtu.be/TCNIhDC6au4
I would like to know, if the gay (?) political leaders of California will be able to ask God for water when they have no more water to drink.
You brain-dead people are chastised by the divinity, and you don't even notice it.
However, every single, wise Californian citizen can still escape God's judgement through faith in Jesus. Repent, believe and get sacramentally baptized right now, and God will preserve you in midst of the fire like Lot.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
Speaking of brain dead, have you yet figured out why the Golden Rule doesn't apply to you? Are you listed as an exception to it in the Bible?
Now you think that the water shortage in California is due to gay people living there?
Could you be any more uneducated?
To what cause do you think your drought in Bavaria is due to?
Who gave you the info that we have also a draught in Bavaria?
You are well informed, we suffer a severe draught.
The California drought is not due to the gay people living there, but due to all the people there who legalize gay lifestyle.
The legalization of the gay lifestyle is the actual sin, not the gayness in itself whereby gayness is also a severe sin, not harmless.
Maybe the draught in Bavaria is due to the legalization of same-se-x partnership of evangelic pastors there. That is simply too much for the divinity.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
California allows Christians to divorce and remarry, making them ADULTERERS.
Why isn't that the cause for the drought? Any answer other than HYPOCRISY from you?
It may be an additional cause.
"The California drought is not due to the gay people living there, but due to all the people there who legalize gay lifestyle."
That is utter bull! Gay is not a lifestyle. You being a bigot is a choice, being gay is not.
"The Bible says" that gayness belongs to the depraved nature of man. Gayness is one of many expressions of the depraved human nature.
When will you finally learn this lesson?
I don't give a rats ass what your buybull says. It was written by man and has been shown to be fallacious on many counts, the issue of GAY included. It has no pertinence outside of your home and church-keep it that way please.
Nevertheless God's words will become reality, no matter what you give or don't give.
"The Bible says" that gayness belongs to ...."
Rainer's interpretation of Gullible's Travels is, of course, perverse to many other believers. And so it goes with the over 41,000 sects of insanity. When you think about it, Rainer is a good advocate for atheism.
And by the way, Rainy – since you are always so hyped up on "sin", why don't you invite awanderingscot over for some mutual flagellation? I would think if you two made a concerted effort to double down on self-deprecation, according to your strange beliefs, you would be guaranteed first class seats to that big dungeon in the sky......
OMG rainy I found you !
http://www.farleftside.com/2014/6-16-14-complications.html
Science works within its compass, but there are things science cannot explain.
"but there are things science cannot explain"
Very good Bigot-Rainy!!! And just because they can't explain it does not mean you get to explain it with your imaginary friend.
Hey rainy so 1=1=3 according to you eh ?
Oops that should be 1+1 rainy.
" but there are things science cannot explain." = god did it
Who gave you the info that we have also a drought in Bavaria?
You are well informed, we suffer a severe drought.
The California drought is not due to the gay people living there, but due to all the people there who legalize gay lifestyle.
The legalization of the gay lifestyle is the actual sin, not the gayness in itself whereby gayness is also a severe sin, not harmless.
Maybe the drought in Bavaria is due to the legalization of same-se-x partnership of evangelic pastors there. That is simply too much for the divinity
Or perhaps the droughts are due to climate change! Geez to call it anything other than what it is, is blatant ignorance the SCIENTISTS who study these things are more reliable sources than your buybull...you might wish to start listening to what they have to say. As previously stated, as long as you remain stuck in the delusions you live, you remain a blemish on humanity...people like you do great harm to furthering our species and contribute to the decline.
"The Bible says" that the weather is made by God.
Job says that God even knows every single cloud and every single raindrop.
Nope. It isn't due to the legalization of anything.
If you recall, the Dust Bowl Era had a severe drought going on, and there was no legalization of gay MARRIAGE in the works in the 30's.
Want to know what caused the dust storms? Look it up. It's interesting.
Hint: it wasn't gay people.
God also hates capitalism and materialism.
The Bible also says a bat is a bird.
The bible says a lot of crap that isn't backed. So once again I don't give a rats ass what your bible says..it does not pertain to anything outside of your belief system. It is Climate Change causing those droughts and it is ignorance on your behalf to deny that.
Oh my, do they get much dumber than you?? (That is a rhetorical question)
Those words can't be proven to be your imaginary friends but they can be proven to be the words of man. What a gullible tool you are!!
What's it like living in the Land-Of-Oblivion??
God also hates capitalism and materialism.
God is incapable of hate.
"God also hates capitalism and materialism. "
And he's not too keen on hambergers.
"Could you be any more uneducated?"
I'm sorry, "Akira". I'm afraid it's not possible for "Rainer Helmut Braendlein" to be any more uneducated.
He's a baseline for ignorance
You're such a bigoted ass. I understand you take pride in that but pride is a sin according to your cults book and I'm sure your imaginary friend would accept LGBT before it will ever accept you (not that it exists).
Rainer,
As A. Wommack would rightly say, if God is bringing judgment to California or any place, He would have to apologize to His Son Jesus, because Jesus bore all the judgment of God's wrath on the cross, so we won't have to.
Clueless!
" God’s greatest act of judgment was when He placed all of His wrath for our sins upon Jesus. This forever satisfied God’s wrath. Since that time, God hasn’t been judging our sins (2 Cor. 5:19). God’s not angry at us. He’s not even in a bad mood.
Look at the angels’ joy at the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem.
Luke 2:13-14 says, “And suddenly there was with the angel a multi.tude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.”
This scripture is very familiar to us, yet there is a lot of misunderstanding about what it’s saying. Some translations say they were proclaiming “good will among men” or “peace to men of good will.” Basically, this passage has been interpreted to say Jesus was bringing peace on earth among people. That’s not why these angels were praising God. If that interpretation were true, then Jesus’ own words in Matthew 10:34-36 would contradict this. He said,
“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.”
Jesus Himself said He was not sent to bring peace on the earth among people. The peace that the angels of Luke 2:13-14 were praising God for was peace BETWEEN God and man. They were announcing the end of God’s war on sin. Peace now reigns between God and man.
Prior to Jesus’ coming, there was wrath from God against mankind for his sins. It wasn’t total wrath. Even in the Old Testament, we see God’s mercy and grace. Yet the Old Testament Law was a ministry of wrath (Rom. 4:15 with 2 Cor. 3:7 and 9), and people’s sins were held against them. But when Jesus came, God quit holding people’s sins against them. This is exactly what 2 Corinthians 5:19 and 21 says:
“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation…For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
The word “reconciliation” is talking about making peace. God was no longer holding us accountable. Instead, He imputed our sins to Jesus, making Jesus accountable for our sins. Jesus became what we were so we could become what He was—the righteousness of God.
Jesus was like a lightning rod that drew all the judgment of God unto Himself. He not only bore our sins; He actually became sin (2 Cor. 5:21)."
AWMI
You are ill!
You should consider a medical examination of your head.
(Rainer, I see I've killed several sacred cows.. sorry, that happens at times) Jesus loves you and so do I.
Jesus said this in John 12:27-32:
“Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
Many have thought this thirty-second passage means that if God is properly glorified in our preaching, then He will draw all people unto Himself. But that is not what this passage is saying.
If you look in the King James Version Bible, notice that the word “men” in verse 32 is italicized. That means it wasn’t in the original language. The translators put this word in italics to let you know this was their addition, but it wasn’t a part of the text. If you take this verse in context, I believe that the Lord was saying He would draw all JUDGMENT to Himself. Jesus, like a lightning rod, attracted all of God’s judgment for all of mankind’s sins for all time unto Himself.
All the murder, all the perversion, every vile and rotten sin imaginable, all sickness, and all disease ever known to mankind actually entered into His physical human body. Isaiah 52:14 talks about the crucifixion of Jesus and says that He was marred more than any man to the point that He was unrecognizable as a human being.
That could not just happen from physical beatings, especially since the Word says that not a single bone was broken in His body (Ps. 34:20 with John 19:36). I believe His body was completely disfigured from the cancers, tumors, diseases, deformities, and anything else human beings have ever suffered.
Jesus didn’t ask for the cup to be taken from Him just because of the physical pain He would suffer but because He did not want to become sin. He hated becoming what He came to redeem us from. And the worst part of all Jesus’ sufferings was total rejection from His Father.
Matthew 27:46 says,
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
God the Father forsook Jesus so you and I would never be forsaken. All that you and I would have suffered, through billions of years in eternity—the grief, the pain and, worst of all, the complete separation from the presence of God—Jesus experienced. And He experienced all of this for us. When we say God is judging our sins as individuals or corporately as a nation, we are voiding what Jesus did. That would be “double jeopardy.”
Delusional!
Rainer Helmut Braendlein
He KNOWS enough about the Bible to be able to answer questions, which puts him FAR ahead of you. Ooooops.
He could never be as clue-less as you Rainy. All new-man does is show a different interpretation of your book, sorry if you don't agree with him but by him standing up to you, instead of with you already proves he is a better Christian than you.
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Gunga...ga-gunga lunga" that is to say, On my deathbed I will attain complete consiousness”.
So he has that going for him...
OK, well I do need something to watch whilst I eat popcorn, so I'm inviting the two of you to appear on the upcoming all-new Non-Celebrity Christian Deathmatch. (to provide just your dialog to go with the claymation of course...)
Poor Rainey is apparently too ignorant to understand weather patterns. There is no difference between him and the ancient Greek who saw lightning and thanked Zeus for sparing him.
Three points:
Whatever two people decide to do with their bodies for each other, it is between them and their Creator who gave it to them.
Marriages can be s-exless.
Regardless of what type of marriage is recognized by an individual, or by society, or by government, or by any organized religion, God has His own rules about what a marriage is.
MadeFromDirt,
Yes. God has his own heartless ideas on marriage. He believes that women could be prizes of war. He believes that marriage can be FORCED on people who can even hate each other. He believes that some people can never divorce no matter how awfully their spouse treats them.
You can support God's ideas on marriage. Personally, I think some of them are BARBARIC.
friend,
you need to find a new God. The one you described, certainly isn't worth worshiping.
Go find yourself a God of LOVE, LIGHT, and LIFE. One who is totally awesome and Loves you no matter how good you are and Loves you equally, no matter how bad you are.
Go find yourself a God who loves you so much He has forgiven your past, present and future sins. so you have nothing to grip about. Find yourself a God who has taken all the bad that you deserve and has given you all the good that His Son deserves, a God that has made you a joint heir with His Son. A God whose Son bore all your sickness and diseases so you should have none. Such a God is worthy of all praise, honor, glory and worship. Yahweh Elohim is His Name.
Blessings!
"One who is totally awesome and Loves you no matter how good you are and Loves you equally, no matter how bad you are."
i.e. Not the Christian god.
New-man brother, thanks for relieving me from having to type.
Cheesemaker, God hates sin, but loves you, and He wants to take the sin out of you so you can be with Him. That's the real "Christian God".
If god loves me unconditionally, I am not required to do or believe anything ....right?
Cheesemaker, unconditionally is not the best word to describe the overall situation of God's love, at least not at our default position. But unconditional love is a promise from God, and is made possible by and through Him. God created us in His image (which means with an awareness and will among other things) so of course He does love us. He loves us so much that He only wants to give us an eternal love that comes from absolute perfection and purity. That is, He won't give us tainted love. But He cannot give us perfect and unconditional eternal love, because we all have already lost the deal by violating our Creator. He gave us life, but we slap His face (or worse), and we deserve nothing good any more. God is perfectly righteous and must judge and punish accordingly. We are helpless to do anything to repair the damage. But He gave us Christ as God living as a man as our proxy. When God regenerates our mind, and we see the beauty of Christ and we put our trust in His life, and in how Christ takes on God's punishment for us, and in how Christ covers us with His righteousness, despite our offenses we are adopted into God's eternal family, and in honor of Christ we turn away from our old nature step by step, and then we do and will experience God's perfect and unconditional love forever.
made
The idea of marriage is entirely man made.
Most likely, so is the idea of "god" and "creator".
There is nothing indicating any sentience initiating the Big Bang.
There is nothing indicating and intelligence is needed for things to exist and evolve.
Igaftr,
"Most likely"???
There's hope for you yet!
made
There may be hope for you if you realize that there is iinsufficient evidence to make any conclusion. There certainly is no evidence anywhere of any of the thousands of gods men have worshipped, most likely all were made up by men, yours included. Once you realize that you can make no conclusion, you will realize how fake your religions are.
Hey the creator got banned in the UK and Ham went on a rant – hilarious !
http://richarddawkins.net/2014/06/ken-hams-ignorance-is-exposed-again-in-a-rant-against-uk-schools-banning-the-teaching-of-creationism-as-science/
The value of the American culture is shown by the manner how many white Americans treat black Americans:
The value of your culture is about zero.
We need a Christian emperor who restores the good old system of the Western World.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
Speaking of cultures, you demonstrate the old German culture and the days of Hitler.
Ooooops!
The value of your bigoted opinions is less than zero.
Rainman
I was out last night at a large local festival. Thousands of people from every walk of life, every color. Everyone was enjoying the music, the weather and the people. Blacks treating whites as PEOPLE and vice versa.
It really does show how MOST people treat each other.
The ones you refer to are NOT most...they are like you...hateful for NO reason.
A wise person told me once, "Never think for a second that beliefs can make you a good person."
I like that...wise indeed.
My father told me that years ago.
The whole thing, which I have never forgotten, was
"Never think for a second that beliefs can make you a good person. There are no shortcuts to respecting yourself."
I deliberately omitted the latter part, as I have my doubts that the person I posted to has any respect for anything let alone himself.
A wise person told me once, "Never think for a second that beliefs can make you a good person."
This applies especially to you, Rainier. You may consider yourself Biblically correct, (which I disagree with vehemently, you don't walk the walk) but your words and actions indicate otherwise.
The value of the American culture is shown by the manner how many white Americans treat black Americans
75 years ago, you'd have a valid point.
Shall we talk about German culture 75 years ago?
Be quiet. You are not qualified to talk about American culture.
Your opinion has as much value as those who wore Got Mitt Uns as a fashion accessory.
By the way, the former German foreign secretary Mr. Guido Westerwelle is just chastised by the Godhead: He suffers from leukemia (cancer of the blood).
It depends on Westerwelle how things will turn out. If he repents, believes in Jesus, and refers to his infant baptism (I imply that he got baptized as an infant), he will experience deliverance, forgiveness AND cure. If he remains stubborn, his disease will become a curse for him, and he will face physical death and eternal death.
Mr. Westerwelle has a male partner, that means that he is gay.
How long did Westerwelle play the achiever, but now he is brought low by the divinity.
Don't let us get seduced by the current success of the stubborn sinners. History shows that long-terms many of them were brought low yet here on earth.
Absurd.
The idea of leukemia (or any cancer) as divine retribution is just absurd.
Children are diagnosed with cancers all the time; what is their sin?
Please educate yourself of the pathology of diseases, and, by the way, grow out of the Middle Ages, when erroneous thought processes prevailed.
The thought of this man developing leukemia because he is gay is wholly retarded.
I'm afraid Rainer is eneducatable. A truly hopeless case.
By the way, the former German foreign secretary Mr. Guido Westerwelle is just chastised by the Godhead: He suffers from leukemia (cancer of the blood).
It depends on Westerwelle how things will turn out. If he repents, believes in Jesus, and refers to his infant baptism (I imply that he got baptized as an infant), he will experience deliverance, forgiveness AND cure. If he remains stubborn, his disease will become a curse for him, and he will face physical death and eternal death.
Mr. Westerwell has a male partner, that means that he is gay.
How long did Westerwelle play the achiever, but know he is brought low by the divinity.
Don't let us get seduced by the current success of the stubborn sinners. History shows that longterms many of them were brought low yet here on earth.
Yeah, and the high council of Hogwarts, with Dumbledore presiding also chastised him for using magic in public.
Please show the direct cause and effect relationship indicating "god" punishing him rainman. Absurd belief is all you have.
By all means, show any correlation.
That is just YOUR schadenfreude, taking pleasure in someone's pain.
You don't even know if any gods exist, and you certainly have no idea if god is punishing him.
Your bible says he would be punished AFTER death, so you are just enjoying someone getting punished for something YOU think is wrong.
You just keep showing you are a very sick individual. SO pompous, arrogant..oh and one more thing...WRONG.
The range of Christian belief is impressive.
You have people who believe the bible is literally true. Then you have minor 'interpretists', e.g. Each day in Genesis is an age but creation is as the bible says, then more heavy 'interpretists' that allow evolution as God's method, etc. where there are conflicting morality, different denominations put priority on different rules. This story is one example.
To me, it puts Christianity in a precarious spot logically. I get the literalists, you have an omnipotent God, here are his commandments, period. The problem is the literal meaning is in conflict with scientific facts, and some of the period morality is unacceptable today. The explanations don't help, leading to solipsism and/or moral relativism. The 'interpretists' have the problem that their beliefs reduce to opinion, not unlike the interpretation of poetry, everyone has their opinion.
Maybe Christianity came too soon. If the wisdom of Jesus came today, he probably would have steered clear of any scientific overlap and moral ambiguity.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
Still waiting for you to tell us why the GOLDEN RULE doesn't apply to you and fellow bigots.
STUMPED?
Jesus Christ is still ready to set free gays from their gayness. God has a very understanding for the depravity of our human nature we have inherited from our parents and finally from Adam and Eve. God knows that we sometimes feel inclinations which we would not dare to confess publically.
I don't hate gays, and I would never harm a gay man or woman. On the contrary, I consider gays as people who are seduced by Satan who made them believe that gayness is a predisposition like being lefty. To some extent it is even true that gayness is a predisposition. It is only that we should be aware that this predisposition belongs to our sinful nature, to our general inclination to sin, to do, what God has prohibited. Gayness is not a neutral predispositon like being lefty. Being lefty is morally neutral like being small or ugly, black or white, clever or stupid, etc.
Of course, to some extent it is true: "They are born with it!" like "sam stone" would say. Yet, gays have to accept that their inclination is a consequence of Adam's fall who degenerated after the Fall. This inclination doesn't belong to man as he or she was genuinely created by God. Gayness and other sins are a result of Adam's submission to the powers of death and destruction.
When Jesus died for us on the cross he has borne our sin. He has resurrected in order to sanctify us. Through faith in Jesus we can become partakers of a new, divine nature which can gradually suppress our bad old nature, if we daily accept again the humble dwelling of Jesus in us through the Holy Spirit.
The locus in space and time, where we get connected with the releasing power of Jesus death and resurrection, is sacramental baptism or the rebirth out of Water and Spirit. There we die for the sin, and enter Christ. Dead for the sin, and being in Christ, we are able to overcome the bad inclinations of our body.
Conclusion: God doesn't hate gays, but he wants to set them free. Every gay who accepted the freeing through Jesus Christ, will come through at Judgement Day.
If you face a severe disease like cancer then regard this as God's education who uses the disease as a rod to chastise you, sot that you may not get lost, but get saved. Together with forgiveness God will give you cure – it is up to you.
Who is God's enemy?
Those are the people trying to justify or legalize gayness. That is a crime against God. That is much worse than being gay. That is a sin of the spirit, very severe. Such a people should be aware that God will chastise them very hard, and they will face no peaceful future here and beyond.
The legalization of any misbehaviour is the great crime of our time. That will not work, God will educate us by any means.
Using the Bible to legitimize your bigotry is sinful in itself.
"Gayness" isn't an illness. Educate yourself.
I don't claim it would be an illness. I rather claim that it is one of many expressions of the depravity of our bad, old human nature. We all suffer from this bad, old nature. There is only a difference how we deal with it.
Well, this is good.
Because gender attraction is innate, a part of who they are.
Simply: they're born this way.
We've come a long way in understanding human se.xuality, something that wasn't known 2000 years ago.
Rainman
There is nothing deprved about h0m0$exuality. What is depraved is your judgment.
Go and read what your Jesus allegedly said about how to treat others.
Such a hateful bigoted rant. You need to get mentally healthy...you're delusional!
What is hateful about it?
I don't get you.
I have no clue what you mean.
I seek the holistic health of every gay man.
Rainer, we know you don't have a clue. That's all too obvious.
What is hateful is that you thin LGBT are sinning and thus you're judging them.
Holistic doesn't mean what you think it means, Rainier.
Being gay isn't an illness. You confirmed that above.
Rainy: "Jesus Christ is still ready to set free gays from their gayness."
LOL
Rainy: "God has a very understanding for the depravity of our human nature we have inherited from our parents and finally from Adam and Eve. God knows that we sometimes feel inclinations which we would not dare to confess publically."
LOL – way to speak for God, dou.chebag.
Rainy: "I consider gays as people who are seduced by Satan who made them believe that gayness is a predisposition like being lefty."
LOL – when trying to make a point, and one god is not enough, by all means involve as many as you need. (eyeroll)
Rainy: ".... Being lefty is morally neutral like being small or ugly, black or white, clever or stupid, etc."
LOL – interesting description..
Rainy: "gays have to accept that their inclination is a consequence of Adam's fall who degenerated after the Fall. This inclination doesn't belong to man as he or she was genuinely created by God. Gayness and other sins are a result of Adam's submission to the powers of death and destruction."
Ah – well here's your problem, Rainy. You have a preconceived notion associating gayness with sin. Christians, of course are in great disagreement with each other over that. You should read realbuckeyball's post below – you might actually learn something.
Rainy: "blah blah more and more stuff about sin blah blah blah"
Rainy: "Conclusion: blah blah blah – more stuff about sin and that gayness is a disease and – blah blah blah"
Here's my conclusion, Rainy – you're a bigot and a pretty disgusting one at that. How easily do you think people can be fooled by your inane attempts to put on a friendly face while espousing your twisted opinions about gays based on your interpretation of Gullible's Travels?
And by the way, Rainy – since you are always so hyped up on "sin", why don't you invite awanderingscot over for some mutual flagellation? I would think if you two made a concerted effort to double down on self-deprecation, according to your strange beliefs, you would be guaranteed first class seats to that big dungeon in the sky.....
Rainer views things through the lens of his religion.
And that would be perfectly fine, if he didn't ignore the strides that have been made in understanding human se.xuality.
Augustine thought that deaf people were born as a result of sin. How absurd is that?
Today, we know better. About why some people are born deaf, and some people are born gay.
Rainer's own words:
"All my workmates will characterize me as the bigoted a-ss".
I can't imagine why that would be.
rainman
"and I would never harm a gay man or woman. "
Except that your rant is doing exactly that. Your vile hatred, and the language you use is causing harm.
For shame rainman.
I am protected by the basic right of freedom of expression and opinion.
As long as we don't cut off the limbs of each other, because we have different opinions, things run quite well. I favour general tolerance. I only cannot tolerate religious doctrines which legalize bad crimes (Jihad is simply a crime, period) .
Discussion helps us to overcome hatred. Discussion means to utter the true own opinion.
What is wrong about that?
So rainman
You don't think that hate speach such as yours is harmful, that words do not harm?
You claimed you would NEVER HARM, but then turn right around with your hate speach, whcih is harmful.
You just don't like the fact I caught you in a BOLD FACED LIE.
I am not hateful, period!
I am aware of my own sinfulness, and therefore I treat gays in a meek and humble manner.
I don't deal with gays like many white Americans with black Americans.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
Your comments do serve a purpose on here. You are the poster child for IGNORANT BIGOTRY. You demonstrate how people with mindless bigotry like Hitler are still in our midst.
You are so silly!
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
Why doesn't the GOLDEN RULE apply to you?
Still COMPLETELY STUMPED or just AFRAID?
Yes, Rainier, you are taking advantages of American freedoms while bashing them at the same time...
I must ask why, when you abhor American tolerance and culture, why you insist on posting on an American website.
Are there no German sites you can share your opinions with like-minded individuals?
It is very strange, but CNN Belief Blog is the only frequented blog about faith mattesr I know.
There are many belief blogs, but they are not frequented, especially the German ones.
rainman
"Jesus Christ is still ready to set free gays from their gayness"
If I subst!tute the word gay or "gayness" whatever that is with christian...see if you think it is hate speach.
You first off are claiming to speak for you Jesus, then you make a calim that being gay is something that gay people need to be freed from.
You ARE hateful rainman, you just can't see it.
Rainy: "Discussion helps us to overcome hatred. Discussion means to ..."
Well that's all fine and dandy except that, with you, discussion is useless since, as Athy pointed out above, you are ineducable.
Rainer – "...I consider gays as people who are seduced by Satan..."
I assume you believe you have been tempted by Satan to do countless things that you believe to be sins. I'm also assuming that you don't think you've ever been tempted to be gay. Why do you suppose Satan is not bothering you with that "sin"?
It's a shame that your god can't set you free from your ignorance, rainey. Your "faith" simply seems to give you a list of people it's okay to hate, and as far as I can tell from your writings, hate is the one thing you do very well.
Ho'mose'xuality as an "orientation" was unknown in the history of human ideas until the late Nineteenth Century.
There was no, (supposed), "lifestyle" until the Twentieth Century. The idea of "orientation" arose when Psychology began to develop as a science. All men were as'sumed to be straight, and only straight, all women straight, and only straight.
There was also no notion of a continuum of s'exual behaviors, (bise'xuality), as science recognizes today.
Any "different" behavior was seen as "deviancy" from an absolute inherent norm, which the person was as'sumed to inherently possess, completely by virtue of birth gender.
In Ancient Israel class and status distinctions were extremely important.
The injunction in Biblical times, (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13), was against (as'sumed), STRAIGHT men, (and only men), (as they ALL were as'sumed to be straight), engaging in same-se'x behaviors. (There is a mistaken use of the Sodom and Gomorrah myth in this context also, which is misguided.)
Why ?
It had to do with class structure, and male status. A male, who held the highest position in society, and held the highest class status, was seen to be "feminized" by penetration, and designated as a social inferior, (female), by a male of lower class status, and thus his status was lowered, to that of a woman. THAT is the reason the culture forbade it. It had NOTHING to do with s'ex. It was status, and only status. This concept remains very much, (subliminally and overtly), in place today. This law code, in Leviticus, (the latest law code to be written), is the ONLY place this appears in the Old Testament. The author of Leviticus was very interested in the "equality of all" before God. It was that author's agenda. He also said strangers, and others from outside Israel were all to be treated with equal rights and dignity, which was a departure, from other texts and codes. It is ironic, indeed, this equality has been turned on it's head, to treat gay people, less equality. The author of Leviticus WANTED all people treated equally, and that is why he wrote the injunction into the text, in the first place, to PREVENT inequality. The ideal society for this author was classless, and that could not happen if a male penetrates a male, and makes him thereby, a lower class. It's about class, not se'x.
This cultural origin was true in the Old Testament culture, as well as the New. That is the reason it ended up in the Bible, and the ONLY reason it was there.
The law in the Old Testament : "You shall not lay a male as with the laying of a woman, it is an offensive thing". (note: the correct translation is NOT, "it is an abomination"). (The word "toi-va" is used, and in archaic Hebrew, EVERYWHERE else is translated, "an offensive thing").
Why is this important ? Because there are levels of "offensive things", and levels of meanings of "offensive things".
There were a number of levels of offensive things in the Old Testament.
#1. was something which was offensive to God, and this was the worst.
#2. was something which was offensive to other peoples and cultures, (for example the same word is used with reference to some foods being "offensive" to other cultures, (as hagas might be to Americans), or for example the Egyptians didn't eat, with non-Egyptians, as that was "offensive", or in today's language, "bad manners".
#3. was something which was just generally "offensive", with no further relational attribution.
So it can be "offensive" to some people, but not everyone, and is relative to the situation, or to god, or just in general.
The injunction against male same se'x behavior is the third kind of offensive. It's not related to either God or anything, or anyone else. (There are other verses around it that are stated to be offensive to God, but not this one).
So in this text, it is offensive to the authors of the text, and that specific culture, (only).
Same-s'ex behaviors (upper class man penetrated by same class or lower class men), was forbidden, for class reasons. Equal class men, doing non-penetrating activity, or women together was not forbidden.
( Woman with woman, in general, was not addressed, and the class issue was not important.)
So what does this tell us ?
It tells us the laws were written into the Bible by HUMANS, for human culturally relative, and internally referenced reasons. The laws in the Bible REFLECTED their OWN culture, of the times, and did not "inform" the culture.
The direction of information flow is crucial. Every Biblical scholar knows this. The Bible was informed by the culture, NOT the other way around. There are no "ultimate" claims possible from culturally relative, historically rooted, human local customs.
The other main text used to justify the fundamentalist nonsense about ho'mose'xuality, is the Sodom and Gomorrah myth in Genesis. Hospitality of Abraham : In Genesis 18, there is a myth about the hospitality of Abraham, (he welcomes two strangers, who turn out to be angels), as that was an important cultural value, in a society where a wandering desert dweller could get lost, and die. The myth is followed closely by it's counter example of in-hospitality in the Lot myth, (Sodom and Gomorrah). It is not about se'x. It's a counter example to the hospitality story, of in-hospitality. The context is important.
The great irony is that religious fundies use the Bible to keep gay people away from their "table", and feasts, using the very texts that the Bible intended to teach hospitality, to do precisely the opposite.
Thank you for this. Best explanation I have read.
I, too, was taught that the greatest sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was the sin of inhospitality, for the reasons you outlined above.
Well apparently the incest that Lot engaged in wasn't an issue...
Nope, that happened after the "righteous" Lot escaped with his daughters.
Apparently, the blackout he had due to being faced is the excuse given to why God didn't punish Lot afterwards.
I have been faced many times, and if I am so faced I can't remember anything the plumbing is incapable of working...I call BS.
(I know you weren't actually arguing that, just pointing out the problem with that response.)
Lol. Which is why the pass they gave to Lot is patently absurd.
" And you have admitted you have no reason to say such activity is immoral other than because you believe your God said so:"
That is correct.
And your moral barometer is nothing more than the abstract, personal subjectivity of a finite being, who when consistent with his position, must admit that his mores are no more or less valid than those of the other 7 billion humans on the planet. History has not been kind to moral relativists, or perhaps I should say moral relativists have not been kind to history..
Sorry cheese, meant for our previous post.
Is the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thou shalt not murder"?
That is where you are wrong devin, my personal mores are no more valid than anyone elses but as a group we as humans have the capacity to reason ourselves to a better understanding of morality. Ascribing to a supposed "ultimate morality" is nothing more than a claim, an assertion, unless you can objectively demonstrate you are correct...and you can't. Until then your morality is just as relative as any else's. Stating it "isn't" without providing anything but your and your god's say so doesn't change that. And the real problem with your claim of "objective" morality is that it cannot ostensibly change with better information. This issue of gay marriage is a perfect litmus test. We know that many people are born gay, it is an innate part of themselves. It is also natural in that it is demonstrated in nature to exist outside of ourselves. That being the case and the fact that you cannot reasonable justifly it being immoral means we should change our view of it...something that you can't bring yourself to do under the "objective biblical morality".
You are simply restating a common misconception that is becoming prevalent in our society. It is this idea that the moral relativism of the individual is permissible in that the collective society will bring about the ultimate good/truth. It goes without saying ( I always find it odd when people state this and then proceed to say it anyway, exactly what I am about to do) that society is comprised of individuals, and when those individuals as the collective make decisions based on moral relativism the group as a whole follows the cultural shift. It is why a nation can justify the attempted extermination of an entire race.
ddeevviinn,
The standard EXCUSE for many Christians in trying to explain away barbaric commands from God is that they were based on the times. This is truly moral relativism.
Obs
I neither make an excuse nor explain it away as " based on the times." The God who has created is sovereign, he can damn well do as he pleases. He does not have to justify his actions to me, even when those actions may appear to my mind as unjust or unfair, or even at odds with how He has told me to act. He knows the beginning to the end, unlike my finite self who with age realizes there is very little I do know.
I know you do not accept this, I just wanted you to understand I make no excuses or feel the need to defend God's actions.
Bye the way, hope all is well with you, haven't conversed in a while.
ddeevviinn,
Doing fine. How about you?
I'm doing well, minus the inconveniences that come with now being 51 yeasr old. C'est la vie.
ddeevviinn,
Keep in mind that you've already had 9 years more than Elvis did.
Obs
Thank you very much. ( Said in my best Elvis voice).
devin,
Moral relativism is a damn sight better than biblical objective morality....not that you have ever been able to demonstrate that it exists anyway.
I also think it is hillarious that you have made an arguement that would exuse you god of absolutely any behavior. You thereby strip yourself of any rational thought regarding such a diety.....or irrational thought for that matter.
" It is why a nation can justify the attempted extermination of an entire race."
Yeah, such behavior could never be justified biblically could it?
Oh, wait....I forgot. You made the point that nations can just claim god told them to slaughter an entire race and then it is justified...nevermind.
The bible was written by individuals who may have been intelligent but were saddled by the limits of their knowledge of the natural world. What we know now is light years ahead of what they knew. To use the bible as the arbiter of morals is to ignore 2000 years of learning and social evolution. The civilized world understands that it's time to put away unfounded bronze age biases, because those biases are primitive and unjust and have no place in modern society.
tallulah,
Biblical morality is essentually the same as creationism. You are never allowed to change your view even when better information is available.
Cheese
Obviously you read my reply to Obs, but apparently it didn't sink in. I will repeat, I do not make excuses for the God who created me.
The dilemma ( one of many, Wink ) between you and I is our point of reference. I start with belief in a being who is sovereign, loving, compassionate, holy and just. His morality is irrefutably perfect in that He is the author and definer of morality. So that when He carriers out and allows for actions that from my human perspective may initially appear horrific and even immoral, I recognize that it is not being done by a human being with intrinsically flawed moral motives, but rather by a being in whom no imperfection exists. On the other hand, your point of reference is your own logical thought based in human nature. I am not a fan of human nature.
'His morality is irrefutably perfect in that He is the author and definer of morality. "
Like I said, this position leaves no room for improvement. All you have done is created an argument that in your mind can't be refuted. Morality is also about understanding why something is right and wrong...otherwise you are just following orders and morality is not needed for that.
There is no need of " room for improvement" when the moral law giver is the essence of morality. I understand fully why morality is "right" i.e. I know why I shouldn't kill, steal, lie, commit adultery etc... It's not rocket science. You follow your commands of morality I choose to follow the commands of the being who from my perspective has established morality.
Unless you are killing witches, you are not following true biblical morality, Dev. Remember Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Since it is not rocket science maybe you can explain why consensual adult s.ex is immoral.
My wife and I try to engage in it as often as possible, so I wouldn't call it im moral.
Well aren't you coy...that's cute.
Yep, cunning witticism, it's a gift. And all this time you assumed intellectual genius was my greatest attribute.
God following along, just behind social change. Just like he did with divorce, slavery and female rights. It is funny how God seems to suddenly accept the same social issues that the majority of his believers do very soon after they do. I would be more impressed if God started to accept gays in 1850 or 1725, well ahead of the curve.
But he didn't. He only did when we did. And let's face it, we all know why. We create our gods and project upon them our prevailing morals. Ever noticed that God loves all the same things you do, disapproves of the same things you do and has an identical moral outlook to you (even if you don't always live up to it)? Ever thought that maybe you created him in your image and not vice-versa? If not, why does every person have a slightly different view about what God "wants" or about what "pleases the Lord?"
If you truly think that a being created the entire Universe and its countless billions of galaxies about 13,720,000,000 years ago happens to have your moral outlook from 21st Century USA, you are parochial and self confident to the point of delusion.
God is only " following along" with those whose morality vacillates with the ever changing cultural shift. It is a subjective morality that hinges on the whims of the individual. It is a fluid morlaity in that what may be true at one particular point in time may not necessarily be so in the future. I know this guy, by all measures he is signicantly further to the left than myself. Up until a few years ago he believed that g ay marriage was morally wrong and openly expressed his opposition to such unions. He has since done a 180 and now gives it his full support. It was not the validity of his initial morality that changed, only his perception of the cultural shift that was coming. You may have heard of this guy, we call him POTUS.
" Ever notice God loves all the same things you do, disapproves of the same things..."
No, I haven't. In fact, I find often the opposite is true. Two examples: 1) I am an avid environmentalist, and as such I recognize that the most pressing issue we are facing is that of human over population. I also recognize that the procedure of abortion is an effective tool in curbing this explosive population boom. As a christian I understand that God considers all life to be sacred, inlcuding life which exists in the womb. So while my own personal, rational thought brings me to one conclusion, I defer to what God has established, even though it may be at odds to what I "love". 2) I love beautiful women. I've been married to one for 27 years. I would really like to "love" many more beautiful women. There is a side of me that says " nothing wrong with wanting to have multiple s e x ual partners, women are beautiful and s e x is a naturally good thing. Again, while my human nature may not disapprove of this mentality I defer to the disapproval of my creator. Obviously, the point here is that your premise is not accurate.
" moral outlook from the 21st century"
And the 20th century, and the 19th century, and the 18th .... The only parochialism and delusional self confidence is in the as sertion that the being who created the entire universe shares MY morality. I share His.
"It is a subjective morality that hinges on the whims of the individual."
No it is not, morality can and does come from the social group as a whole. And that is the same vein that biblical morality derives from, it is just ascribed to a "higher authority" when there is absolutely no reason to think it actually does.
I will always learn from the reality I live in rather than from a book written 2000 years ago by people with a limited knowledge of the world. I simply don't have it in me to discriminate against good people who do no harm, who are being exactly who they are born to be, just because the "bible tells me so". As far as I can tell, there are very few things on this planet as harmful as blind faith.
Sorry tal, can't help. My moral position on this isue does not lead me to "discrimination" and "blind faith" is not something I have ever practiced
Well, Dev. the best we can ask of people is that they research what they believe and why, no matter the outcome. I looked at the complete and utter lack of evidence to support the existence of gods and realized that I could not honestly believe. You made a different call.
*from what you posted above devin.
"The God who has created is sovereign, he can damn well do as he pleases."
That is the very definition of "blind faith".
" That is the very definition of blind faith"
If there is one thing that gets my goat in conversation, be it verbal or written, it is the lack of precision in the usage of terminology. I have not been exempt from the occasional misuse of wordage myself, but I make a concerted effort to represent words and phrases properly.
So Cheese, had I come to you with no previous thought about my faith or the God I worship, and made the " damn well do as He pleases " comment, I could accept your statement. In that I have spent the last 30+ years considering, studying and reflecting upon the attributes, nature and character of the God of the bible, and have given extensive thought to the evidences I find everywhere in the created world and the world of human behavior, and on the basis of all of this have determined and developed my faith, I know that you, being the bright fellow I know you to be, will readily concur with me when I say that your statement was udder nonsense.
tal
I agree. And while I will express and defend my beliefs and faith to you, I will never attempt to impose those beliefs on you or criticize you as an individual for holding your own erroneous views. ( IT WAS A JOKE! Take out the erroneous and you get my point.).
devin,
I realize you have thought through you position on god very carefully.
I was more referring to the idea that you were expressing that god can do what he wants and that his actions cannot be questioned. I think that regardless of how you came to that conclusion...the conclusion itself is one of "blind faith". You blindly accept any behavior of god and have faith it is good. I think divine command theory is an awful concept.
" I was more referring to the idea that you were expressing that god can do what he wants and that his actions cannot be questioned."
As was I, and it is the 30+ years of previously mentioned consideration that resulted in my position that has nothing to do with blind faith. A little caveat here: I never once stated that God cannot be questioned. It is something I do relentlessly. It is something many of the individuals in the biblical narrative did. What I did say is that God is not obligated to give an account of his motives or to justify his actions.
As for Divine Command theory, I am not interested in whether or not I think it's a good or awful theory, I'm interested in whether or not it is true. You will find many of my modern christian bothers who will bend over backwards to make God appealing and placate the concerns of the skeptic. I am not one of those. The sovereignty of God is woven throughout the entire fabric of the biblical account. He works everything out by the counsel of His own will and for His own good pleasure. Dismiss it or accept it, these are the 2 options. You have chosen the former I the latter.