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How Scalia's prophecy became a moral crisis
Supreme Court Associate Justice Antonin Scalia predicted that anti-gay marriage laws would fall.
June 27th, 2014
08:20 AM ET

How Scalia's prophecy became a moral crisis

By R. Albert Mohler Jr.special to CNN

(CNN) - One year after the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision on the Defense of Marriage Act, this much is clear: Justice Antonin Scalia is a prophet.

Back in 2003, when the court handed down the decision in Lawrence v. Texas, striking down all criminal statutes against homosexual acts, Scalia declared that the stage was set for the legalization of same-sex unions. That was 2003.

“Today’s opinion dismantles the structure of constitutional law that has permitted a distinction to be made between heterosexual and homosexual unions, insofar as a formal recognition in marriage is concerned,” wrote Scalia.

He was proved to be absolutely prophetic when, just ten years later, the court ruled in United States v. Windsor that the Defense of Marriage Act was unconstitutional — thus striking down the federal statute defining marriage exclusively as the union of a man and a woman.

Once again, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote the majority opinion, while Scalia handed down a fiery dissent. As before, Scalia was prophetic.

Even though the Court did not rule that same-sex marriage must be legal in all states, it set the stage for that to happen. As Scalia wrote: “As far as this Court is concerned, no one should be fooled; it is just a matter of listening and waiting for the other shoe.”

One year later, it is abundantly evident that we did not have to wait or listen for long.
Almost immediately, challenges to state laws and constitutional amendments prohibiting same-sex marriages erupted.

In a staggering series of decisions at the federal and state levels, judges explicitly cited the nullification of DOMA and the central arguments of the Windsor decision in striking down those laws and constitutional amendments.

A year after the death of DOMA, not one major decision has defended any of these statutes or amendments. Kennedy’s opinion has been cited as authoritative in virtually every one of these judicial actions.

This has meant that in a single year, the legalization of same sex marriage has become a reality or received a positive judicial action in states including Utah, Oklahoma, Kentucky, Virginia, Texas, Pennsylvania, Oregon and a host of other states far from where such unions had previously been recognized.

A year later, it is clear that the Supreme Court remains the central political institution of moral transformation in America.

A year later, it is also clear that the court was riding a vast change in public opinion.

We must also see that the time is almost at hand for that transformation to be made complete, at least in terms of the legalization of same-sex marriage in all 50 states.

What was not clear a year ago was the velocity of this transformation. Even the architects of the revolution are expressing surprise at the speed of these judicial actions.

By the end of this summer, the Supreme Court will likely need to revisit the question once again, this time responding to the cavalcade of lower court decisions the high court spawned.

There is very good reason to expect a decision mandating same-sex marriage coast-to-coast in the Court’s next term, with a decision to be handed down just a year from now, almost to the day.

Furthermore, the Obama administration has been pushing the agenda vigorously, with the federal government now aligning all agency policies in line with the Windsor decision - even extending to areas the decision was never intended to reach.

Where does that leave committed Christians?

Those of us who believe that human flourishing depends upon the recognition and honoring of marriage as exclusively the union of a man and a woman see this transformation of marriage into something radically different as a grave threat to human society and human happiness.

We do not argue that these damaging effects on society and its individuals will be immediately apparent, but we are sadly confident that the subversion of marriage will bring devastating effects over time.

In retrospect, we can also see that previous subversions of marriage set the stage for the radical redefinition of marriage in our times.

Our failure to answer the challenge of rising divorce rates was, eventually, fatal to our effort to defend marriage against its redefinition in terms of gender. Some of us saw this danger at the time, but there was no adequate effort to oppose the devastating impact of divorce.

The larger sexual revolution also plays an incalculable role in this transformation. The moral separation of sex and marriage among millions of Americans removed any hope of establishing a lasting consensus on the central importance of marriage and its essence as a monogamous man-woman union.

A year after the death of DOMA, it is also clear that very real threats to religious liberty now loom before us. This is perhaps the inevitable consequence of a moral revolution of this scale.

Will the government now coerce the consciences of churches, religious institutions, schools, colleges, social service agencies, and the like? There is now strong evidence that government at every level will attempt such coercion. Will America abandon religious liberty for the sake of erotic freedom?

Those of us who believe same-sex marriage to be a moral impossibility now face a very daunting challenge — how to live in a society that is moving so rapidly against our moral worldview, even as the society shared that worldview for over 2,000 years.

We face the challenge of finding how to relate to our neighbors and contribute to the common good when we see that very society undermining human flourishing in the name of sexual liberty.

A year after the death of DOMA the listening and the waiting are almost over. The revolution is almost complete. The shoe is dropping fast.

One thing is clear to all – no one was exaggerating when the Windsor decision was declared by both sides to be revolutionary.

We can all agree on that much, just one year after the revolution was declared.

R. Albert Mohler Jr. is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. The views expressed in this column belong to Mohler. 

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Christianity • Church and state • Culture wars • evangelicals • Gay marriage • Gay rights • Opinion • Religious liberty • Same-sex marriage

soundoff (653 Responses)
  1. Rainer Helmut Braendlein

    Gay America, dry America.

    "The Bible says" that God lets it rain on the good and on the evil people. If that would be the only verse of the Bible, we could assume that the rain would not depend on our behaviour. Doesn't the "Bible say" that God lets it rain also on the evil people?

    Of course, we have to consider the whole content of the Bible, and always we have to relate one single verse to the whole content. The solution is that there are different degrees of evil behaviour. God can tolerate the malice of a people up to a certain degree, and up to this degree he is ready to give the rain despite the misbehaviour of the people.

    According to the biblical evidence gayness is a severe sin. Maybe it is one of the worst sins somebody can commit. However, worse than gayness itself is the legalization of gay behaviour.

    The legalization of any gay behaviour is the actual problem. This is a thing God cannot tolerate, and this causes his infinite wrath. I am quite sure that the drought in California has something to do with the legalization of gay marriage there. This is the perversion of God's good orders. Why should a gay man or woman still repent, and return to God and his Church, when the secular society becomes a kind of pseudo-church where gays can be "happy" despite the absence of God's presence who is life and cure in himself (the great benefit of the true Church is the presence of God there who is life, cure and love in himself; the presence of God in the church causes real happiness)? If the secular tries to imitate the Church, she completely destroys Gods world order:

    The secular society shall be a place where sinners can exist (note that mere existence is no life in abundance) in an organised way despite their sinful behaviour which damages others, themselves and God's holiness. God has some patience with the sinners (who really commit harmful acts), and hopes that they may shift from the secular society where they merely exist, to the Church, where they could find life in fulness. If this difference between society and Church is obliterated, God's purpose, the conversion of the sinners, is totally counteracted. God will not tolerate that anybody counteracts the salvation of poor sinners whom God loves, and He has delivered his precious Son for.

    It must be always clear that the only place on earth where we can find peace, love, happiness, holiness, fellowship, etc. is the Christian Church. There is a place where we can escape, where we can find deliverance and forgiveness. If mankind abolishes this divine place, the mankind has no more right to exist or no more purpose.

    God will abolish this mankind.

    Let us regard droughts as a warning, and don't let us go too far. His wrath is awful.

    Replies by trolls are undesirable.

    June 28, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
    • austin929

      Drug addiction, s.ex addiction, alcoholism, anger addiction

      does anyone have the power to change?

      yes. resurrection power is available. its supernatural.

      June 28, 2014 at 2:03 pm |
      • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

        You are so bad that I could call you US Muhammad.

        Muhammad was an Arabic epileptic who spew plenty of delusional nonsense.

        June 28, 2014 at 2:07 pm |
        • austin929

          you have mis understood me.

          but while on this subject check this out.

          this is God's will , the savior of all the world.

          these are the first two born sons of Ishmael, who has nothing to do with Islaam.

          Isaiah 60:7 ►

          All Kedar's flocks will be gathered to you, the rams of Nebaioth will serve you; they will be accepted as offerings on my altar, and I will adorn my glorious temple.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:10 pm |
        • austin929

          "You are so bad that I could call you US Muhammad."

          why did you say that?

          June 28, 2014 at 2:13 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          I meant realbuckball, sorry.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:21 pm |
        • austin929

          Ishmael was a Jew.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:13 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Ishmael was NOT a Jew..in fact God made it clear he was Isaacs God..but Never said such about Ishmael..and also a fact he was NEVER considered a brother by the Jews (according to Jewish culture..a brother was a FELLOW Jew) get facts ok?

          July 1, 2014 at 2:39 am |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          Sorry Austin, I did not mean you. I made a mistake.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:14 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          I meant realbuckyball – see below.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:16 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Austin: Rainer is a proven liar...he means you, that is obvious from his other lies...if you believe him, then you truly belong with him in a rubber room safely out of society.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:32 pm |
        • austin929

          Truth Prevails, try not to as.sume to know what Rainer meant. That is dangerous to demand you know his mind. scary..

          June 28, 2014 at 2:41 pm |
        • austin929

          Akira. Peace to you. what if he was responding to Truth Prevails and the rubber room demands? lol!

          why do you side one with the other. they can both be seen as acceptable comments. as in , not illegal.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:10 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          Akira, it more and more becomes manifest that you are quite braindead.

          I don't hate gay people, but wish that they would convert, that means that they repent, believe in Jesus and refer to sacramental baptism (the rebirth out of Water and Spirit).

          I don't make-up my own doctrine, but adhere to the good, old doctrine of the Early Church which we can find in the Bible. The Bible is a holy scripture inspired by God himself. The Bible is perfect.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:11 pm |
        • observer

          Rainer Helmut Braendlein,

          Skip the WORLD-CLASS HYPOCRISY.

          Name one church advocating changing laws to FORCE gays to the fringes of society like you do.

          OOOOPS.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:16 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          Yes, gays should be forced to live at the fringes of society. Their lifestyle cannot be accepted as usual.

          This is the very issue: The legalization of gay lifestyle.

          That causes God's wrath.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:23 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          You should be locked up.

          Compared with you gays are harmless.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:19 pm |
        • austin929

          Thats cool, i understand, and you have made that clear when i pick on catholics, but Truth prevails picks on me and tells me i need to be insti.tutionalized, and I never have seen you defend me or Rainer.

          so what gives?

          by being selectively moral you disqualify your self, as we all do to ourselves. everyone is a wrong some times.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:24 pm |
        • observer

          austin929

          All Christians are selectively moral. That's how they can pick on gays while ignoring the Golden Rule.

          That's how they can trash gay weddings while IGNORING the MASSIVE number of fellow Christians who are ADULTERERS because of divorce and remarriage.

          It's all pick-and-choose HYPOCRISY.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:31 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          Adultery is also a very severe sin.

          Maybe the whole misery began with the toleration of adultery some decades ago. That maybe was the gate for the toleration of same-se.x relations.

          Both adulterers and gays need the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:38 pm |
        • observer

          Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          "That causes God's wrath."

          Same for people like you who ignore the Golden Rule.

          Obviously, you are not afraid of God's wrath. Well done.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:33 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          You love the term "Golden Rule".

          Do you, as a typical American, assume it had something to do with making profit?

          June 28, 2014 at 3:41 pm |
        • idiotusmaximus

          Muhammad was an Arabic epileptic who spew plenty of delusional nonsense.....

          And the difference between him the people debating this crap is what..............................?

          June 28, 2014 at 5:33 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          Akira is the judge of the whole mankind.

          How presumptious.

          She seems to be a perfect girl.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:40 pm |
        • austin929

          Akira, locked up is the only thing that matters. coming down hard on one and not the other is interesting, but i wont call it anything negative , because your second responsibility is to judge between right and wrong.

          you should judge and be loyal to what you think is correct. every opinion i have about other denominations, i back up with scripture, i don't make stuff up.

          Ti.tus 1:9

          He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

          1 Timothy 2:5 ►

          For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

          again, what you call bigotry against catholics, is nothing other than a true perception for error in the church. It takes just a personal devotion and understanding of the word of God.

          I have the responsibility to remain loyal to the word of God, and to love others by doing so.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:40 pm |
        • observer

          Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          "Adultery is also a very severe sin."

          So how many times have you publicly advocated that laws be changed so that your FELLOW CHRISTIANS who are adulterers will be forced to the fringes of society?

          NUMBER please. This is another HYPOCRISY test that you will likely FAIL MISERABLY AGAIN.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:42 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          Persistant adulterers should live at the fringes of society – yeah.

          Penitent adulterers are welcome again in the Church, also penitent gays.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:49 pm |
        • observer

          Rainer Helmut Braendlein,

          The Golden Rule is a much better alternative to your mindless bigotry.

          It takes a WORLD-CLASS HYPOCRITE to PRETEND he is a Christian and not follow it. Well done.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:44 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Oh my, Rainer, you are a disgusting individual. Wow, how the hell would you like it if all of a sudden someone said that you, as a hetero male could no longer be part of society??? There is no damn difference from what you are sickly proposing for gays.
          These people have no made a choice and I don't give a damn if your buybull says otherwise-that book does not rule and for a valid reason-to keep the kooks like you from basing laws on it.
          Personally I think you're the person that needs to be pushed backs to the edges of humanity, you further need to be fixed so that you are unable to procreate and teach the next generation to be so wretchedly hateful.
          You are a true bigot and what happens in The USA or any part of North America, is not your damn business and given how much you hate them please feel free to take your hate and bigotry to another site where they support you.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:51 pm |
        • austin929

          @ Rainer
          Abraham was promised to become a slave.
          Isaac, Jacob, Joseph ( his bones were brought up from Egypt,
          and then finally Moses from the tribe of Levi.

          Hold true to the spiritual promise, with love and affection.

          May God bless us one and all. !

          June 28, 2014 at 4:02 pm |
        • tallulah131

          I have a better solution: Let's put people like Rainer, people whom religion makes stupid, in camps where they can only inflict each other with their poison. That way, those who can live like civil beings don't have worry about Bronze Age hate, fear and bigotry.

          June 28, 2014 at 5:52 pm |
        • idiotusmaximus

          Muhammad was an Arabic epileptic who spew plenty of delusional nonsense......

          While this might be true there is still no empirical evidence that like Jesus, there is no proof that this person ever existed.

          June 29, 2014 at 10:31 am |
        • fintronics

          @observer "It's all pick-and-choose HYPOCRISY."

          Yes indeed... based on the master book of pick-n-choose the babble

          June 30, 2014 at 1:27 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        How cute Austin...you have a friend who is just as delusional as you! Maybe you both could share a Padded Room at the asylum!

        June 28, 2014 at 2:20 pm |
        • austin929

          Truth Prevails.......I am a genuine individual.

          The spirit is supernatural.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          That you are living all in a world of your own...how very special (needs that is).
          The supernatural is non-existent! Do they not provide dictionaries at the barn that you attend school at?
          Here is the definition link for you: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural
          So where would you like us to book your rubber room at? What is the closest asylum to you? And for the love of humanity, please take your boy-toy Rainer with you.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:27 pm |
        • austin929

          Truth prevails,

          I am just like you. we are all human. but I have experienced something bigger than my physical and emotional problems, and i have become loyal to that, and I still have bad days. I wish you the best and hope you will be open to a supernatural savior, the voice of freedom from sin. and redemption. because you are loved by God and you are justified as you are.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:32 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          No Austin, you are a liar...what you have experienced are delusions, nothing more. You are certifiably insane! Your imaginary friend doesn't exist and your experiences are nothing of importance in the real world...so which asylum did you wish to be booked in to?

          June 28, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
        • austin929

          Matthew 26:60 ►
          The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death.

          But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two came forward

          June 28, 2014 at 2:43 pm |
        • observer

          austin929,

          Why do you side with a HYPOCRITE who doesn't believe in the Golden Rule?

          June 28, 2014 at 2:45 pm |
        • austin929

          7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

          salvation comes first and then repentance.

          Proverbs 26:5 ►

          Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.

          Proverbs 26:4 ►
          Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.

          Let Christ help us all . Worship = excessive devotion.

          devotion to sin is spiritual prosti.tution.

          Pride is another sin, however keeping a sound doctrine is a command.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:00 pm |
        • austin929

          Akira, we don't live in a pipe dream. And we in this day and age had what people did not in the old testament.

          we have the completed and finished word of God. is there anything in this world that we should submit to?

          Revelation 19:13 ►

          He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
          John 1
          1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

          Akira, if this is false, then we might as well eat each other for dinner, nothing is wrong then.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:30 pm |
        • observer

          austin929,

          Why do you side with a HYPOCRITE who doesn't believe in the Golden Rule?

          Completely STUMPED? What would God think about it?

          June 28, 2014 at 3:35 pm |
        • austin929

          Akira, I can promise you that no where in scripture does it mention locking someone up in a concentration camp for being gay. I agree with you Akira.

          If you read Rainers blog, he talks about love. was he joking around? was he being fecalious?

          June 28, 2014 at 3:46 pm |
        • austin929

          on the other hand, hell is like a concentration camp. we all deserve is apparently. God is holy.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:47 pm |
        • tallulah131

          Austin, what you have is a book, written and edited by men who lived in a relatively primitive society with the agenda to promote the institution that gave them power. What people who live in reality have is a knowledge that far outstrips your bible. We can find other planets. Someday, we may find other life forms on those other worlds. We can cure disease and talk instantly to people on the other side of the planet. What has not been found is a shred of evidence to support the existence of your Bronze Age god. (Or any other god).

          The authors of the bible didn't even know that there was a North and South America, or an Australia or Antarctica. They traveled by animal or boat, and a journey that takes us hours could take them a lifetime. I understand that you think that your faith makes you special. Perhaps you could take a minute to consider the reasons why we just don't agree.

          June 28, 2014 at 6:01 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        You've been away...Rainer has been blaming the draughts in California on the legalization of LGBT rights; he blames cancer on LGBT; he admitted yesterday to hating the USA. He's admitted to his co-workers thinking he is a bigoted ass (he seems to be proud of this)...is that what you what representing you belief system? This man is off his rocker.

        June 28, 2014 at 3:55 pm |
        • austin929

          Hebrews 11:8-10

          New International Version (NIV)

          8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

          1 Peter 2:11

          King James 2000 Bible
          Dearly beloved, I beseech you as aliens and exiles, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

          American King James Version
          Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

          American Standard Version
          Beloved, I beseech you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lust, which war against the soul;

          June 28, 2014 at 3:59 pm |
        • tallulah131

          Simple meteorological science is just too much for Austin or Rainy to grasp. It's much easier to blame weather on gods than it is to find real answers. Austin and Rainy are no different than the ancient Greeks who saw lightning and thanks Zeus for sparing them.

          June 28, 2014 at 6:04 pm |
    • observer

      Rainer Helmut Braendlein

      "According to the biblical evidence gayness is a severe sin. Maybe it is one of the worst sins somebody can commit."

      It has NO VICTIM unlike your man Hitler who killed MILLIONS.

      The Bible says that it is an ABOMINATION. You know, that's like eating scallops, lobsters and Alaskan crablegs.

      Read a Bible SOMEDAY.

      You are TOTALLY CLUELESS.

      June 28, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
    • austin929

      I think an important subject matter is the avenue into the mind that the devil truly has.

      There was a demon called legion, who had many voices. But the devil can appeal to every emotion and sense. until people can admit that this is true, they are totally and completely blind to bondage and oppression.

      and that is absolutely frightening.

      the fact is, the spirit is going to pull back the restraints and lawlessness is being revealed. and when t he restraint is gone, there will be demoniac evil everywhere.

      June 28, 2014 at 2:07 pm |
      • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

        Munich is so demonised that I sometimes think I would live in midst of Satan's brain.

        What about US guys?

        June 28, 2014 at 2:12 pm |
        • austin929

          Rainer, I wish I could talk to you about the amount of persecution i have received for standing up to this USA christian crap.

          The USA is apostate if it is considered a church. Christ the apostles and the disciples were not killers. They didn't start a military.

          on the other hand though, it is mysterious how Ezra, Nehemiah and Esther were basically empowered by the decree of a non believing king. was it Cyrus? or Artexerxes? and so who am I to say that Israel was not put in place by the Balfour declaration or Palestine mandate, by the will of God.

          but it does say that "In that Day, I will restore" (my own words" and "in that day" does not refer to ww1. and so it is up in the air, but Christ is the one to restore a bigger promise of "spiritual Israell" and the American church has no clue who this refers to.

          Ishmael is not to be persecuted, his flocks are promised to be considered spiritual Israel.

          The U.S. in its war, is another arm of Satan. The church needs to identify itself as a missionary of the sacred gospel of salvation.

          Saul of Tarsus, was no different than a Jihadist.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:21 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Cute, Austin and Rainy have found a mutual ground on their shared delusions...pathetic blemishes on the human race...the ones that hold humanity back.
          Austin: If you do not like residing in a Secular country, MOVE!!! Otherwise stop your whining and join us in the 21st century-your god can't be shown to exist and your dreams don't prove it...you are a delusional liar and so is your boy-toy Rainer...so which ASYLUM did you want booked in to?

          June 28, 2014 at 2:30 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          I am a fan of Benjamin Franklin. He has a place on my website.

          He had never favoured the legalization of sin as it happens today (he favoured chasti-ty).

          Freedom is good as long as it doesn't become an idol replacing the true God.

          Modern America is not the America how it was intended by its founding fathers.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:46 pm |
        • observer

          Rainer Helmut Braendlein,

          lol. Benjamin Franklin was famous for his s3xual adventures abroad.

          He had a common-law marriage with a 15-YEAR-OLD girl.

          He had an ILLEGITIMATE son.

          Your HYPOCRISY is amazing and incredibly IGNORANT.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
        • observer

          “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.” – Benjamin Franklin, “Poor Richard’s Almanack”, 1758.

          June 28, 2014 at 3:54 pm |
        • observer

          “He [the Rev Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.” – Benjamin Franklin, “Autobiography”

          June 28, 2014 at 3:56 pm |
    • tallulah131

      We get it, Rainer. You are a sad, ineffective person who has no real power in your life, so you have adopted religion as a means to feel important. But in reality, your religion does not grant you power, nor does it actually grant you the importance that you so desire. You are nothing more than an angry buffoon, railing against human compassion because it will not obey your irrational demands.

      June 28, 2014 at 2:13 pm |
      • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

        Your psychological abilities are very limited.

        June 28, 2014 at 2:20 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Kind of like your intellectual abilities are? You and you boy-toy Austin here should consider sharing a room at the asylum-you're both bat sh!t crazy and in need of help!

          June 28, 2014 at 2:22 pm |
      • observer

        tallulah131,

        How could you leave out the phrase "mindless bigotry'?

        June 28, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
  2. midwest rail

    For six decades, contemporary Christians have helped destroy the sanct.ity of marriage by ignoring divorce and adultery within their own ranks. Are you a multiple divorcee ? No problem, come on in, just don't forget that collection plate ! Are you a serial adulterer having an affair with the church secretary ? No problem, come on in, just don't forget that collection plate ! Are you a g.ay person wishing to have your monogamous, committed relationship recognized ? Begone, Satan !!
    No, folks, quite simply, modern evangelicals are morally inconsistent hypocrites who have chosen an easy target to hate. Cowards all.

    June 28, 2014 at 12:33 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Akira, they wrap themselves in the twin cloaks of patriotism and the moral high ground while wielding their bible as a sledgehammer – at the same time, they feign persecution and portray themselves as victims despite their blatant discrimination. Transparent lunacy.

      June 28, 2014 at 12:54 pm |
    • Salero21

      Very well said!!

      On top of that some churches, entire denominations are "marrying" all of these. The aberrations, abominations, corruptions and perversions of the world and in the world don't worry me at all. However when those same aberrations, abominations, corruptions and perversions infiltrate and take front seat in the church, now that's worrisome.

      June 28, 2014 at 1:29 pm |
      • realbuckyball

        Yeah. How could Jebus allow that ?
        Oh wait.
        He never existed. Never mind.

        June 28, 2014 at 1:51 pm |
  3. Doris

    Rainy: "The secular society shall be a place where sinners can exist [..] in an organised way despite their sinful behaviour which damages others... blah blah blah.."

    Rainy – have you asked awanderingscot over for some mutual flagellation yet? I'm sure with the two of you doubling down to the max on self-deprecation, you'll be guaranteed first class seats to that dungeon in the sky that others call heaven that you seek so much...

    June 28, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
  4. Rainer Helmut Braendlein

    We as Germans are responsible for the Holocaust, that is no question. We have committed a very severe crime which can only be forgiven through faith in Jesus and his sacrifice. May God forgive us, and his People Israel.

    But what about the historical fact that you guys slaughtered each other during the American Civil War which was one of the most cruel wars of all history.

    The whole world appreciates your wisdom, you muppets.

    June 28, 2014 at 11:46 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      What does have to do with this story?
      Why do you like to start battles where none are to be had? If you don't like America then feel free not to comment on an American owned site...trust me, you'll not be missed.

      June 28, 2014 at 11:49 am |
    • realbuckyball

      "which can only be forgiven through faith in Jesus and his sacrifice"

      -– So then. Your god is limited in the way she can do things. That's an alarming thing to say, Rainey.
      That means your deity is not the master of Reality. (You get an "F" in Philosophy for the Summer).
      You can appeal to retake the class.

      June 28, 2014 at 11:58 am |
    • austin929

      Rainer..............right on bro! you are so correct. the wickedness has just re-branded itself, and the evil has found a grip here in the American bigot church.

      June 28, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
      • observer

        austin929,

        If ANYONE knows BIGOTRY, it's Rainer.

        June 28, 2014 at 2:36 pm |
  5. Rainer Helmut Braendlein

    By the way, for years gay Bavarian pastors of the Evangelic-Lutheran Church of Bavaria are allowed to live together with their gay partner in the parsonage (what a scandal).

    For a long time Bavaria was the most backward (Catholic) country on earth, but now it has overtaken America in hellish progress.

    It is also very dry in Bavaria. Trees start to lose their leafes though summer has first begun.

    June 28, 2014 at 11:37 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Such lies and hate spewing from you...stoned-cold heart, what a miserable cuss you are!

      June 28, 2014 at 11:41 am |
    • realbuckyball

      Correlation is not causation.
      Rainey has also become more stupid by the week.
      I wonder what evil he has been up to.

      June 28, 2014 at 11:45 am |
    • realbuckyball

      It's "leaves", not "leafes"

      Please feel free to leave.

      June 28, 2014 at 11:46 am |
      • fintronics

        .."make like a tree and get out of here!.."

        June 30, 2014 at 1:32 pm |
  6. Rainer Helmut Braendlein

    Gay America, dry America.

    "The Bible says" that God lets it rain on the good and on the evil people. If that would be the only verse of the Bible, we could assume that the rain would not depend on our behaviour. Doesn't the "Bible say" that God lets it rain also on the evil people?

    Of course, we have to consider the whole content of the Bible, and always we have to relate one single verse to the whole content. The solution is that there are different degrees of evil behaviour. God can tolerate the malice of a people up to a certain degree, and up to this degree he is ready to give the rain despite the misbehaviour of the people.

    According to the biblical evidence gayness is a severe sin. Maybe it is one of the worst sins somebody can commit. However, worse than gayness itself is the legalization of gay behaviour.

    The legalization of any gay behaviour is the actual problem. This is a thing God cannot tolerate, and this causes his infinite wrath. I am quite sure that the drought in California has something to do with the legalization of gay marriage there. This is the perversion of God's good orders. Why should a gay man or woman still repent, and return to God and his Church, when the secular society becomes a kind of pseudo-church where gays can be "happy" despite the absence of God's presence who is life and cure in himself (the great benefit of the true Church is the presence of God there who is life, cure and love in himself; the presence of God in the church causes real happiness)? If the secular tries to imitate the Church, she completely destroys Gods world order:

    The secular society shall be a place where sinners can exist (note that mere existence is no life in abundance) in an organised way despite their sinful behaviour which damages others, themselves and God's holiness. God has some patience with the sinners (who really commit harmful acts), and hopes that they may shift from the secular society where they merely exist, to the Church, where they could find life in fulness. If this difference between society and Church is obliterated, God's purpose, the conversion of the sinners, is totally counteracted. God will not tolerate that anybody counteracts the salvation of poor sinners whom God loves, and He has delivered his precious Son for.

    It must be always clear that the only place on earth where we can find peace, love, happiness, holiness, fellowship, etc. is the Christian Church. There is a place where we can escape, where we can find deliverance and forgiveness. If mankind abolishes this divine place, the mankind has no more right to exist or no more purpose.

    God will abolish this mankind.

    Let us regard droughts as a warning, and don't let us go too far. His wrath is awful.

    June 28, 2014 at 11:06 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      delusional rant from a delusional man

      June 28, 2014 at 11:13 am |
      • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

        You miserable lunatic!

        Better you would sweep the sidewalks of the nuthouse where you are imprisoned. This would be of much more benefit for the mankind than your posts which are heaps of crap.

        June 28, 2014 at 11:23 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Lunatic? You're a joke! I'm not the one blaming a naturally occurring drought on America legalizing LGBT. You're seriously flawed in your thinking and quite obviously uneducated.
          If you hate America so much, why even bother commenting?

          June 28, 2014 at 11:32 am |
        • tallulah131

          Rainy, you are sad, self-centered man who can't pull his head out of the bible long enough to look at reality. You choose your delusion because it makes you feel better about yourself. You are irrelevant to people who are actually searching for real, honest answers to the problems besetting this planet. Enjoy your delusion, because your daydreams are as close as you will ever get to your make-believe heaven.

          June 28, 2014 at 1:31 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          tall + blah = tallulah

          June 28, 2014 at 1:55 pm |
    • G to the T

      "I am quite sure that the drought in California has something to do with the legalization of gay marriage there"

      In Maine, we voted in gay marriage by popular vote and it's been a nice spring/summer so far... You focus on one place because it reinforces your preconceptions.

      June 28, 2014 at 11:18 am |
      • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

        Do you know the future?

        Consider California as a warning. God can also strike through too much rain.

        June 28, 2014 at 11:28 am |
        • realbuckyball

          A real god could strike any way it wanted. I see yours is somewhat limited.

          June 28, 2014 at 11:48 am |
        • G to the T

          So a region that often experiences drought conditions is experiencing drought conditions. You know, it snowed this winter in Maine, more than we've had since I was kid. Think that's related?

          June 29, 2014 at 10:21 am |
    • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

      Gospel of Jesus Christ:

      God, the Father, delivered God, the Son, Jesus, for our sins, and raised him from the dead for our justification.

      or

      Jesus has borne ours sins when he died for us on the cross, he lives in order to sanctify us through the Holy Spirit.

      If we repent, simply accept this message as true, and get sacramentally baptized (or refer to our infant baptism), we receive deliverance and forgiveness. We die for the sin, and enter Christ. Dead for the sin and in Christ we are able to overcome the bad inclinations of our body. Keeping this fight we keep the faith and Jesus' sacrifice remains an atonement for our sins. Fellowship is the right appreciation for Jesus' sacrifice. Don't let us assume that Jesus' sacrifice would be of any benefit for us, if we are not ready to let us change through the divine power of Jesus' death and resurrection.

      June 28, 2014 at 11:18 am |
      • realbuckyball

        "If we repent, simply accept this message as true, and get sacramentally baptized (or refer to our infant baptism), we receive deliverance and forgiveness. We die for the sin, and enter Christ. Dead for the sin and in Christ we are able to overcome the bad inclinations of our body. Keeping this fight we keep the faith and Jesus' sacrifice remains an atonement for our sins. Fellowship is the right appreciation for Jesus' sacrifice. Don't let us assume that Jesus' sacrifice would be of any benefit for us, if we are not ready to let us change through the divine power of Jesus' death and resurrection."

        Prove it. And while you're at it, explain why anyone here should listen to anything you spout ?

        June 28, 2014 at 11:29 am |
    • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

      I guess that you live together with Truth... in one cell.

      June 28, 2014 at 11:25 am |
    • realbuckyball

      "and this causes his infinite wrath"

      Thanks for agreeing your deity is always totally p'i's'sed off, and that it changes, (thus not eternal).
      If it's "infinitely wrathful" then it's nothing else.
      Rainey, do you EVER actually stop to consider what the drivel you shoot out your a'ss actually means ?

      June 28, 2014 at 11:27 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Daniel Burke: Would you please be so kind as to stop this person from posting the same thing on every article that pertains to LGBT or the Catholic Church?

      June 28, 2014 at 11:34 am |
    • realbuckyball

      "According to the biblical evidence gayness is a severe sin. Maybe it is one of the worst sins somebody can commit. However, worse than gayness itself is the legalization of gay behaviour."

      Actually that's a lie. SS behavior was the lowest level of "offensive thing" (abomination), but since you never actually took a class from a real scholar, you wouldn't know much about the Bible.

      June 28, 2014 at 11:37 am |
    • observer

      Rainer Helmut Braendlein,

      Still waiting.

      Why doesn't the GOLDEN RULE apply to you?

      June 28, 2014 at 12:22 pm |
      • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

        Words of wisdom in the mouth of a fool.

        How disgusting!

        June 28, 2014 at 1:53 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          Now there's a surefire way to win converts for Jebus. Call people fools.

          June 28, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
        • Rainer Helmut Braendlein

          You are so bad that I could call you Muhammad.

          Muhammad was an Arabic epileptic who spew plenty of delusional nonsense called Koran.

          June 28, 2014 at 2:08 pm |
  7. colin31714

    Morals cannot be absolute, just very common. Morality, by definition, is a value judgment about certain behavior and that requires a person to make the value judgment – so, it must be subjective. As societies change, the atti.tude of the majority of their people change too, thereby making that collective morality fluid. As a person ages, their moral outlook changes, too.

    Morals only ever appear fixed because some conduct is so abhorrent to so many that it rarely, if ever, does one encounter a person who finds it morally acceptable. But even mass killings killings are morally acceptable to some (e.g., the people who carry them out; those many Muslims who supported the 9-11 attacks).

    Many people believe in a god and attribute their morality to it, thereby establishing, for them, a basis to say that those morals that they have mentally attributed to their god are "absolute." You often see Christians do this with controversial social issues such as gay marriage and abortion. The problem they face is that other Christians, who believe in exactly the same god, have attributed contrary morals to their god, thereby demonstrating the fluid, subjective nature of morality.

    It is not as though God ever shows up and says, "Christian A was correct." How could he, he doesn't exist.

    June 28, 2014 at 10:56 am |
    • Athy

      Well said. That should end the argument over morals. But it probably won't.

      June 28, 2014 at 11:03 am |
      • colin31714

        Oddly, one will sometimes see a believer engage in circular reasoning to provide “evidence” for the existence of their god through morality. Their reasoning goes something like this; I believe in God because objective morality exists and the reason I believe objective morality exists is because I believe in a god who holds that morality.

        June 28, 2014 at 11:06 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          And conversely, I believe morals cannot be absolute in that they are a value judgment about certain behavior because I believe value judgments about certain behavior cannot be moral absolutes.

          June 28, 2014 at 11:41 am |
        • colin31714

          yeah, logic is not your strong suit is it, Devin

          June 28, 2014 at 3:13 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          As picking up on sarcasm is not yours

          June 28, 2014 at 8:03 pm |
      • ddeevviinn

        If you think "that should end the argument over morals" I would highly suggest you expand your readings in moral philosophy.

        June 28, 2014 at 11:44 am |
        • Athy

          "Highly" suggest? Try "strongly" next time.

          June 28, 2014 at 1:17 pm |
    • bostontola

      Moral systems work. Societies compete with other societies. Moral systems help the winners. Winning moral systems have much in common. The elements are mostly the same, the priority orderings are slightly different but usually very similar. We have morals because societies without them don't compete.

      June 28, 2014 at 11:07 am |
  8. saggyroy

    The "moral crisis" sounds like the author's personal problem.

    June 28, 2014 at 8:36 am |
    • bostontola

      A morality crisis is his perception, born of the belief in a unique, absolute morality. This is an ancient belief. Modern understanding of human behavior and sociology recognizes morality as an emergent phenomenon. Something a group agrees to abide by, along with the consequences of transgression. The absolute morality and brutal consequences in the bible were one groups approach. We don't subscribe to them now because they no longer fit with modern society. The state doesn't kill adulterers.

      June 28, 2014 at 8:53 am |
      • haime52

        So....if spree killing was no longer thought by society to be immoral, it would be moral? As being it is an emergent moralism? You truly believe that there is no absolutes in morality? It can only be defined by the society of its environment? Why are some so shocked by honor killings in Pakistan? If they define their own morals, we should be neither surprised nor outrage by their morals, as defined by themselves and their society.

        June 28, 2014 at 10:18 am |
        • midwest rail

          Good grief. First it was animals and children that the fundamentalists conflated with s.s.m., and now it's murder. How desperate are you to force the biblical notions of marriage on our secular nation ?

          June 28, 2014 at 10:24 am |
        • kermit4jc

          how dare you assume it is exclusively religious, Bible or Christian? I saw it wrong before I was a Christian..before I read ther Bible..and there ARE atheists groups who say hom s exuality is wrong as well!!

          July 1, 2014 at 2:34 am |
        • haime52

          That is an extreme example, I know. The author's point that the full ramifications and consequences of our actions today may not be visible this close in is ,however, valid. Any action we take may and often does have an impact that can be seen, in retrospect, years later, for good or ill.

          June 28, 2014 at 10:24 am |
        • midwest rail

          An extreme example ? No. It is a comparison lacking in any validity whatever.

          June 28, 2014 at 10:27 am |
        • haime52

          Midwest,
          I stated nothing about marriage. I asked about moral absolutes. You reply seems a non sequitur, not addressing anything in my question. My reply was directed to the statement that appeared to postulate that morals are totally fluid and cannot be absolute.

          June 28, 2014 at 10:32 am |
        • bostontola

          haime,
          If there were a society where spree killing was moral, I don't think that society would compete with others. It would get weeded out.

          June 28, 2014 at 10:33 am |
        • fintronics

          @kermi... "and there ARE atheists groups who say hom s exuality is wrong as well!!"

          Oh really? please provide the names of these atheist groups....

          July 1, 2014 at 10:49 am |
    • tallulah131

      Yep. How can he maintain any semblance of importance if the morals of the society in which he lives have evolved past Bronze Age tribal law?

      June 28, 2014 at 2:15 pm |
  9. bostontola

    Who would have thought that the pope is more progressive on same se.x marriage than a member of the SCOTUS?

    I would predict in 2050 that ho.mose.xuals will be accepted in the Christian denominations containing most Christians. Those Christians will argue on blogs that it is the Golden Rule that rules and that their religion is about love, not about one human judging another. On another blog topic, they will be arguing that evolution is merely God's tool for creation though his infinite knowledge and wisdom.

    Why? Because by then, the science will be incontrovertible that for some, oh.mose.xuality is not a choice, and evolution will be as obvious as the earth is rotating (and the Sun doesn't orbit the earth).

    June 28, 2014 at 7:13 am |
    • ddeevviinn

      I wish I could dispel this pernicious little mythology that equates the Golden Rule with some carte blanche, get out of jail free pass in terms of morality. This mentality runs neck and neck with the idea that "love" is synonymous with the absence of moral decision making. Even the simplest of minds recognize the lack of merit in these positions. We as individuals, and a society as a whole, make moral determinations each and everyday. We decide that it is immoral to engage in mu rder, r ape, stealing, inc est, bribe ry, adult ery, and for the last 220 plus years of American history, h o m o s e x uality.

      So, the issue is not one of reformulating the Golden Rule or embracing a new, culturally correct definition of love. It is, and will remain, one of moral right and wrong.

      June 28, 2014 at 9:12 am |
      • bostontola

        devin,
        I didn't say anything about a get out of jail free card. I said judgment of sinners is for God, humans should love each other and treat them as we would like to be treated. We have laws. Break them and pay the consequences, right here right now in this world.

        You may not like it, but Christians are becoming more tolerant. Like I said, by 2050, the majority of Christians will likely accept ohmose.xual relationships and evolution.

        June 28, 2014 at 9:19 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          You are confusing "judgement with sinners" with that of a held moral belief. It is why many in the g ay community have done a disservice to themselves, in my opinion, by labeling christians as ho m phobes and big ots when many of us are the furthest thing from that.

          June 28, 2014 at 9:27 am |
        • bostontola

          Why do you think I'm confusing judgment with sinners? They are different. Everyone sins by the bible standards.

          June 28, 2014 at 9:31 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          My apologies if my perception of your OP is off. You seemed to indicate that in the future, many christians will use the Golden Rule in order to prohibit labeling h o m o s e xu ality as immoral. You further seemed to imply that this will be based on scientific discovery, in much the same way evolution will be. I assumed these were also your own personal thoughts on the issue.

          June 28, 2014 at 9:48 am |
        • bostontola

          devin,
          As I said, I think the science will clearly show that se.xual orientation is not a choice for some people. There is already science indicating that. Once that is shown, many religions and denominations will adapt to that. Their exact rationalization is not fully predictable, the Golden Rule is one example.

          The same will likely happen for evolution. The science will filter down even into religion. The Christian biologists today have great explanations incorporating it into their faith.

          June 28, 2014 at 10:10 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          " There is already science that is indicating that"

          If you are familiar with the most current literature on the subject then you will agree with me when I say your statement is speculative at best.

          June 28, 2014 at 10:21 am |
        • bostontola

          devin,
          There is science that indicates it is not a choice. The science is too young for me to call it fact, so I would agree. I think it will be shown to be a fact, we'll see.

          Evolution is a fact though.

          June 28, 2014 at 10:26 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          boston

          Let me clarify my position. In the context of h o m os e xuality, this whole nature/nurture continuum is foggy. I believe each of us has genetic soup that is hard wired for different propensities. Some individuals come into this world with a strong proclivity towards anger. Others it's alcoholism. Still others it's wiring that will lead to eventual spousal or child abuse, often times in the footsteps of a parent. The point is that we all have our neurological baggage that we bring into the world, it's what we do with that baggage that makes the difference.

          " Evolution is fact"

          You'll just have to trust me when I say that my answer to this is without bias, i.e without any influence from my christian faith. I'll assume we're talking macro evolution. When I consider all the evidence, the evidence from DNA in particular, the process of evolution seems not only possible, but probable. I just don't feel comfortable at his point in time labeling it as "fact". Still too many voids, unobservable processes and missing, well for lack of a better term, "links" for me to accept it as fact. But yes, I do believe it to be true.

          I should note, evolution is and has never been a moral issue.

          June 28, 2014 at 11:00 am |
        • bostontola

          devin,
          We are very close. On evolution, I'll clarify my position, it is a scientific fact. Life evolves, including speciation, the fossils, genetics, etc. all confirm that. Science can't address whether a God is part of that process.

          Mutation is random by all measures made, selection is consistent with natural processes and is obviously not random, natural or not. Could a God have a part in selection? That is opinion, not fact. The results are consistent with purely natural selection, but a God could use its power in an undetectable way. I don't believe that, but science hasn't tested that.

          The key point is, evolution is scientific fact. The details are still being discovered, but evolution is scientific fact.

          June 28, 2014 at 11:19 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "I believe each of us has genetic soup that is hard wired for different propensities."

          I agree devin, but I think it is telling that in each example you gave after this was a negative one. You seemingly have coupled "anger", "alchoholism", ect. with gay behavior when there really is no reason to do so absent your religious bias. Remove that and gay s.ex vs. straight s.ex is no different than baseball vs. football. You are welcome to your opinion of course but when you ascribe your opinion to a "higher authority" you are contending it is not merely opinion.

          June 28, 2014 at 1:29 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          Cheese

          " ...in each example you gave after this was a negative one"

          Yes, it was. The discussion revolved around a particular practice that I believe to be immoral. The examples I listed were in keeping with that train of thought. I understand that you draw a diiferennt conclusion in terms of morality/immorality, but I'm not sure why comparitive examples would come as a surprise.

          " Absent you religious bias"

          I would change that to "absent my moral authority". Of course eliminating my moral authority would change the picture. That is no different than saying " belief in evolution would be much different if you took away the fossil record, DNA evidence, and dating methods. Absolutely, my views hinge on my source of moral authority.

          June 28, 2014 at 10:41 pm |
      • realbuckyball

        Nope. Morality is not absolute. It changes all the time as cultural mores change. Divorce in the US was once anathema.
        There was no such thing as "ho'mose"xuality until the late 19th Century as the concept of "orientation" arose. Everyone before that was assumed to be straight by virtue of birth gender. NO one says "love is synonymous with absence of moral decision making. "tough love" is well recognized. If "even the simplest of minds recognize the lack of merit in these positions" then if that is really true, what's the problem ? If what is moral is what "we decide" and that decision is based alone on what was historically acceptable, then mixed race marriage is immoral.

        June 28, 2014 at 9:39 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          "Morality is not absolute"

          And herein lies are problem. Morality is absolute, it is only societies interpretation of that morality at a given point in time that wavers. It's why a nation can determine that the extinguishing of an entire race is moral, serving the greater good and protecting their nationalism.

          June 28, 2014 at 9:56 am |
        • realbuckyball

          Wrong again, and your pathetic analogy is false.
          IF "morality is absolute" then your deity in the OT (which changed the rules after Jebus died) is a monster, and you can't wear plaid, or eat pork, or screw a menstruating woman. Where does this "absolute morality" arise from, and why is it human cultures all have such different rules ? You can't really be THAT stupid.

          June 28, 2014 at 10:08 am |
        • realbuckyball

          And BTW, PROVE that an "entire nation" thought that "extinguishing an entire race was moral".
          I see you NEED to think ONLY in simple-minded terms.
          1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."

          June 28, 2014 at 10:11 am |
  10. TruthPrevails1

    kermi: This is just for you.
    "12 reasons gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry"
    1.Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.
    2.Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
    3.Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets, because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
    4.Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all like many of the principles on which this great country was founded; women are still property, blacks can’t marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.
    5.Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed. The sanctity of unions like Britney Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
    6.The only valid marriages are those which produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren’t full yet and the world needs more children.
    7.Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
    8.Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.
    9.Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
    10.Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. We could never adapt to new social norms, just like we haven’t adapted to things like cars or longer life spans.
    11.Civil unions (providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name) are better, because a “separate but equal” institution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.
    12.Gay marriage should be decided by people, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of the minorities.

    June 28, 2014 at 5:53 am |
    • EdSed

      Fantastic post and all great points, TP1. I've bookmarked it for later reference.

      June 28, 2014 at 10:49 am |
      • idiotusmaximus

        in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall. 3.....

        I'm 6' 3"...you mean If I continue to hang around short people....I'M GOING TO SHRINK?????? AAHHHH!!!!

        June 28, 2014 at 10:53 am |
  11. thesamyaza

    here is something you want see on CNN's RB, Marilyn Manson concert was canceled in Moscow to to christian extremist attacking gone of his band-mates and threaten to blow up the building

    ahh gods love...

    June 28, 2014 at 4:59 am |
    • kermit4jc

      and you are pathetic to lump all Christian together as such......

      July 1, 2014 at 2:27 am |
  12. dandintac

    Can anyone explain to me, how stopping OTHER people from marrying the consenting adult of their choice in any way infringes on your freedom of religion? HOW? Can anyone tell me how it harms your marriage? How?

    What it really is–for so long, religion has been able to dictate to society what we should find moral or not, and to the state as well. They have been able to tell us all how we must live, who we must sleep with and in what position. Now they are losing that power, but they are whining and b!tching about it nonstop. It's truly pathetic.

    Back in 2008, when Obama was elected, Governor Rick Perry of Texas had such a hard time dealing with that, that he and others wanted Texas to secede from the union. We should have taken him up on that offer at the time. And take their two senators and 24 congressmen with them, as well as their 38 electoral college votes. Then we could invite all the people who can't handle a black person being president, and all the people who can't handle not being able to others who they can and can't marry–to move to Texas. I think it would have solved a heck of a lot of problems.

    June 28, 2014 at 4:15 am |
    • kermit4jc

      people are forcing business owners to support weddings and such of gays by forcing them to make cakes for their weddings.....we should not be forced to bake a cake for a wedding that we do not support

      June 28, 2014 at 4:17 am |
      • thesamyaza

        kermit4jc
        "people are forcing business owners to support weddings and such of Niggers by forcing them to make cakes for their weddings.....we should not be forced to bake a cake for a wedding that we do not support"

        regardless they do have the right to refuse business, it's not a smart business idea but it you right. still how dear you good sir

        June 28, 2014 at 4:22 am |
        • kermit4jc

          no they ont..apparently you have not heard of some bakery and a photopgrapher who was told by the courts they had to do service to these people

          June 28, 2014 at 4:23 am |
        • thesamyaza

          yo I'm against it two i want to be able to refuse services to Christians but that's discriminator, yup i want to plaster a big no Christians allowed sine on my pub, is it OK if i do that would you support that, i support your right to be a bigot and your right to hate do you mine, you filthy undead Sycophantic christian

          christian is an insult it comes from the word cretin meaning stupid person.

          but you know what we live in a county were you cannot discriminate, if you don't like it move to a Christian nation like Uganda.

          June 28, 2014 at 4:31 am |
        • kermit4jc

          thaqts fine......I don't like going to pubs anyways..i don't like taste of alcohol..and I will find another place...LMAO...its not like you are the only one who has a pub..unlike the stupid gays who wanted to priove something and force the chrisdtians t support them...I will go and look for business ELSWHERE..why..cause theer are other places....really..they are being childish..and so are you..assuming youd like to give me a "tase of my own medicine" IM not stupid..and IM not idiot..I find other places to go to..period....DUUUUUH

          July 1, 2014 at 2:26 am |
        • kermit4jc

          uhh...nott all are non disfrimiatory...we can discriminate against a drunk person....we can refuse business with him..in fact..even a BAR can iscrimiinate against the drunk person....we discriminate CHILDZRen from coming into ADULT stors (strip joints, etc etc) so don't think that's a blanket statement

          July 1, 2014 at 2:35 am |
        • kermit4jc

          NICE game you play..I notice you gave only ONE definition of discrimination....pretty dishonest if Ill say....yes..it is against the law to over serve patrons...and to provide certain services to children..that is STILL an act of discrimination.....

          July 1, 2014 at 2:02 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        If they wish to be considered a public business, they can't discriminate. The gay couples money is just as valuable as the straight couples.
        However thank you for reminding us that those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Just replace black with gay and you'll understand what is happening when people like you use their religion as a weapon against EQUAL rights in a SECULAR country.

        June 28, 2014 at 4:48 am |
      • AtheistSteve

        I didn't know baking a cake or taking photos was observing religious practices. Where is that in the Bible again? Business owners can deny services to anyone they choose but if the customer feels they have been illegally discriminated against then they also have every right to sue. How is this any different than refusing services to interracial couples? But I'm with samyaza on this one. If people should be permitted to refuse services to those they disagree with then I predict the only winners would be the extra business for companies making 'No Christians Allowed' signs.

        June 28, 2014 at 5:59 am |
        • kermit4jc

          who said anything baou t baking a cake or taking photos supports a religious practice?? I made it perfectly clear it was a personal thing..marriage is not always a religious practice..many non religious people get married in non religious ceremonies...

          July 1, 2014 at 2:29 am |
        • kermit4jc

          riiight..you play semantics..it is infringing on my religious beliefs..itsforcing me to serve someone for something I do not support..THAT is religious....duuuh....

          July 1, 2014 at 2:03 pm |
        • AtheistSteve

          Right on Akira.
          I worked at a pub in London, Ont. and we would on occasion ban or eject certain individuals due to belligerent or offensive behavior. This helped protect and maintain a favorable atmosphere for the other patrons. At no time would it have been acceptable to do this to someone who was simply gay or colored for that matter. Kermit is under the misunderstanding that these business people(Florists, caterers, photographers) are participants in the wedding ceremony. They're not. They're being paid to provide a service. Nothing more. The actual wedding participants(family, friends) are there by invitation and are attending without compensation(most also bearing gifts).

          July 2, 2014 at 10:27 am |
      • realbuckyball

        And no one who thinks you're a cannibal for eating the flesh of Jebus has to rent to you, and no one has to let you into their store who thinks your age makes the place look like a place the old fogies hang out, and no one who's religion is fitness has to let fat asses anywhere near them.

        June 28, 2014 at 7:40 am |
        • kermit4jc

          yes..if they want to not allow me in cause IM Christian..fine..I find ANOTHER Place to go to..my God are you so dense as to think I will not get what I need LOLOL...nice try...the gays had OTHER places they can go to..but NOOOOOOOO..they had to pick on the Christians and FORCE us to accept their lifestyle

          July 1, 2014 at 2:31 am |
  13. stridentconservative

    The "cheap grace" message of today's church is responsible for this and the consequences go far beyond anything we can imagine.

    http://www.stridentconservative.com/cheap-grace-nazi-germany-and-the-future-of-america/

    June 28, 2014 at 12:21 am |
    • observer

      stridentconservative,

      There's virtually NO CHANCE that you BELIEVE and SUPPORT EVERYTHING in the Bible.

      Why not cut out the HYPOCRISY?

      June 28, 2014 at 12:29 am |
    • realbuckyball

      Thanks for reminding us that Bonhoeffer was an atheist. "The god who is with us is the god who forsakes us".
      ("Letters and Papers From Prison")

      June 28, 2014 at 12:45 am |
    • realbuckyball

      No church I've ever been in has ever said 1 thing about "cheap grace" nor have the changes in society EVER been linked by ONE historian or social scientist to "cheap grace". "Cheap grace" is a meaningless term signifying nothing.

      June 28, 2014 at 12:48 am |
      • observer

        realbuckyball,

        Yes. It's just another "scare" term that the right loves to come up with to enflame people who don't think things through. It's like "pro-life" and "death panels".

        June 28, 2014 at 12:54 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Yeah, we wouldn't want grace to be cheap....it should be really, really expensive....otherwise you get all those people you don't like getting grace. No way Jose.

      June 28, 2014 at 2:50 am |
  14. thesamyaza

    "A year after the death of DOMA, it is also clear that very real threats to religious liberty now loom before us. This is perhaps the inevitable consequence of a moral revolution of this scale."

    this has nothing to do with hindering your religious rights, if Christianity still wants marriage to be between a man and a woman it can be. but your religion cannot make public policy nor does it have any right to tell me that marriage is between a man and a woman, you have no right to dictate my beliefs i am not a christian and i do not believe marriage is between man and a woman. if anything not respecting my marriage same sex marriage is a violation of religious liberties. non of my gods has against it, hell one of them is for it (Lilith)

    "Will the government now coerce the consciences of churches, religious institutions, schools, colleges, social service agencies, and the like? There is now strong evidence that government at every level will attempt such coercion. Will America abandon religious liberty for the sake of erotic freedom?"

    no government will not coerce Churches and religious institution, save maybe Hospitals. they have every right to Coerce schools and SS, because they are government and must respect peoples rights, most colleges support the idea so that's a non argument. it sickens me that that you think those agencies are connected by your god

    no one is abandoning religious freedoms her just expanding it. Christians are all for religious as long as its there religion

    June 28, 2014 at 12:05 am |
    • realbuckyball

      "Will America abandon religious liberty for the sake of erotic freedom?"
      - Spoken like a true Southern Baptist.
      A few things come to mind.
      If Mohler thinks "erotic freedom" includes SS relationships, I think he's telling us more than he intends about himself.
      *As if* it's really about "erotic freedom". Cluck cluck cluck go the old Church Ladies.

      June 28, 2014 at 12:12 am |
      • thesamyaza

        agreed i fight for erotic freedom as well but the Decisions of the Supreme court got nothing to do with it. and i don' think public opinion is any closer to decriminalization of exhibitionism, or even prostitution the majority of the public still thinks breast feeding is erotic Same sex marriage rights, have nothing to do with erotic liberties. but this guys clearly an idiot.

        but personalty i prefer to live outside of the closet
        [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8krxhNgVhvU&w=640&h=360]

        June 28, 2014 at 1:12 am |
  15. thesamyaza

    hay i'm a prophet to because i seen it coming to,.. dude a blind man could have seen it coming.

    June 27, 2014 at 11:48 pm |
  16. realbuckyball

    "“Today’s opinion dismantles the structure of const'i"tutional law that has permitted a distinction to be made between heterose'x'ual and ho'mose'x'ual unions, insofar as a formal recognition in marriage is concerned,” wrote Scalia."

    That's actually absolutely not true, (therefore the claim of "prophetic" is false also).
    1. I actually like Mr. Scalia. I gained a lot of respect for him, after watching Piers Morgan interview him. He's very principled, and actually has very sound, consistent reasons for ruling the way he does. (Although even he admitted that we have the "right to what was reasonable", and thereby destroyed his own position, as what "is reasonable" is constantly changing.) He said he mostly just reads the Federalist Papers to inform himself on a given subject.

    However there is no "structure in const'itutional law which permits a distinction to be made between heterose'x'ual and ho'mose'x'ual unions, insofar as a formal recognition in marriage is concerned". There never ever has been one. There is NO structure in consti'tutional law which even recognizes ho'mose'xual unions AT ALL, much less "distinguishes between them", and no one can point one out. As far as Mohler's "The sky will fall", he cannot name ONE ill effect granting equal right s to everyone would cause. He's just preaching to his own choir.

    June 27, 2014 at 11:38 pm |
  17. realbuckyball

    "Where does that leave committed Christians?"
    - Since when does Mohler think HE speaks for "committed" Christians, (*as if* one has to buy into his Fundie nonsense to be a "real" Christian ?) What a self-righteous fool. Many "real" Christians do not share his bigoted views about something science has PROVEN is not a moral choice. He speaks for no one. He is an authority on nothing.

    June 27, 2014 at 9:50 pm |
  18. rowdyriemer

    Exactly!

    June 27, 2014 at 9:49 pm |
  19. rowdyriemer

    I've yet to hear a single rational argument why gays should be barred from getting married. I've yet to hear a rational argument why gay marriage is a threat to religious liberty. This is silly.

    June 27, 2014 at 9:46 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      That's because there are none. If there were any, the religious nuts would be all over even ONE like a cheap suit. They would have been brought out by the experts who cost millions in Prop 8. There are none.

      June 27, 2014 at 9:51 pm |
  20. midwest rail

    Ding ding ding ding !! We have a winner !

    June 27, 2014 at 9:28 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.