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June 29th, 2014
08:19 PM ET
Hobby Lobby: the Bible verses behind the battleBy Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Editor [twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN'] Washington (CNN) – For the Greens, the Christian family behind the Hobby Lobby chain of stores, their battle with the Obama administration was never really about contraception. It was about abortion. After all, the evangelical Greens don't object to 16 of the 20 contraceptive measures mandated for employer coverage by the Affordable Care Act. That puts the family squarely in line with other evangelicals, who largely support the use of birth control by married couples. Like other evangelicals, however, the Greens believe that four forms of contraception mandated under the ACA - Plan B, Ella and two intrauterine devices - in fact cause abortions by preventing a fertilized embryo from implanting in the womb. (The Obama administration and several major medical groups disagree that such treatments are abortions .) “We won’t pay for any abortive products," Steve Green, Hobby Lobby's president, told Religion News Service. "We believe life begins at conception.” Evangelicals as a whole may be relative newcomers to that view, but since the 1980s it has become nearly gospel. (The Pew Research Center has a helpful guide to other religious groups' stance.) As Christianity Today editor Mark Galli has argued, evangelicals arrived at their current stand on life issues through a combination of factors, including biblical interpretation, moral accounting and political calculus. Others also add the influence of early architects of the religious right and the example of the Catholic Church, which has opposed abortion for centuries. But given the importance of scripture to evangelicals, it's no surprise that groups like the National Association of Evangelicals cite the Bible in the second sentence of their policy stance on abortion:
You'll see that verse, Psalm 139:13, cited quite a bit when it comes to evangelicals and abortion. In it, the psalmist says to God, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb." (You'll also see that verse cited by many Mennonites, so it makes sense that a Mennonite business, Conestoga Wood Specialties, joined a companion challenge to Hobby Lobby at the Supreme Court.) If God knew you in the womb, the thinking goes, then you must have been at some stage of personhood, and that provides biblical justification for the idea that life begins at conception, according to evangelicals and other Christians. In addition to Psalm 139, you'll also hear evangelicals and Mennonites cite several other Bible passages that they believe affirm the sanctity of human life. Genesis 1, for example, says that mankind is made in God's image; the Ten Commandments make murder a crime against God; and Job, the old Testament sufferer, frets about what would happen if he mistreats his servants because:
Again, you see the divine and womb interacting, which is why evangelicals like the Greens so strongly oppose contraception that prevents embryo implantation in the womb. Still, those verses may not be on the Greens' minds after Monday's decision. Instead, Steve Green has said, they'll be thinking about Daniel 3:17-18
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Great news! Religious beliefs still matter in America, this is awesome!
Yes, it is great to lose our rights.
by "our rights" you mean the rights of the enti.tlement people don't you? grow-up
awanderingscot, I understand you are a troll and I shouldn't feed you, but no, I mean Americans.
what makes one a troll?
Religious beliefs of your employer matter more than your own in America, this is so not awesome!
grow up crybaby, no one owes you anything.
My employer "owes" me the benefits and pay my contract says they owe me for the work I do. This employer doesn't want to pay for health care they already contractually agreed to and the religious majority on the court ruled in favor of the employers right to change that contract to give them an out if they disagree with what the money will be used for. This sets a very bad and extremely sad precedent.
go buy your own birth control when you buy the swill you like to drink.
scot – Just curious, do you believe human life begins at conception? If so, what is your idea about what becomes of the soul of an embryo that is aborted (naturally or artificially) before birth?
well yes James i do believe just like any other honest person with a heart not made of stone that life begins at conception. As for the soul of the aborted fetus, i believe you think you're smarter than our creator in this regard and that's why you ask the question, you're really not. furthermore, since you've asked, i believe there will be justice one day for the life of that innocent and defenseless person that was cruelly ended.
awanderingscot,
And I believe that you didn't answer James's question.
scot – "...just like any other honest person with a heart not made of stone "
How is it cold-hearted to not consider a just-fertilized egg a person? 30-50% of all fertilized eggs do not implant naturally. What is the status of all those non-implanted fertilized eggs in heaven? What sentience could they possibly have?
These are natural questions, and I don't see how it implies any level of feeling smarter to ask them, although I'd say it might imply a level of feeling smarter to say you know the answer. It's OK to say you don't have an answer.
suit yourself, if you do or you don't
Akira
you don't even consider the Holy Scripture honest or valid. why would i care if you think i'm honest?
Well, you do seem to be dodging an honest answer to my original question.
Sorry, Akira, I have to give you a troll fail here. You capitalized your sentences; thewanderingtw^t doesn't...
It is always a good thing when worshippers of Xenu and Satan get more room to exercise their religious beliefs.
So bobby...are they going to stop each person before they make a profit from them and ask if they are on their side or not, and then refuse to make the profit from those they disagree with, or are they going to be the major league hypocrits we have come to expect?
i think the supreme court justices made the right decision and godless people like yourself will just need to get over it.
what if some one pushed there religious convictions on you, how your you feel?
lets say it official became against the law to eat beef do to the sacredness of the cow.
well then, does this mean you'll have to modify the groupthink that characterizes your own beliefs? isn't that what this is about? only your ilk wants everyone else to pay for all of your life choices. are you part of the ent.itlement crowd too?
let's just say you're an idiot who doesn't like wearing a coat in the wintertime; which is fine, none of my business. BUT, you're also an idiot who gets sick every winter and runs up a big doctor bill; which is fine and none of my business. BUT, you can't pay your doctor bill. So someone has to give you the money to pay your doctor bill; which is fine and none of my business. BUT you don't use the money to pay your doctor bill, and you still don't wear a coat, and you still get sick every winter, AND you're STILL AN IDIOT. no religion, just common sense.
The devil make you DO IT Scot ?
dude your an idiot, I'm part of the Dog eat dog crowd, survival of the fittest, I'm a capitalist and a business owner. i just also happen to understand consumer-side economics. i just get upset when certain freedoms we have from birth get taken. your to stupid to realize that we have a serious health crisis in the united states. this is causing crime with is bad for business, i do not like having to chase down a man iv known for years for a dine and dash because he could not afford food doe to medical bills, only to give him more medical bills for punching him a couple times for trying to steal form me.
it is up to use to fix they system and if i have to give more then my 18% then so be it. it will increase my customer base anyways.
also Jesus was a socialist, aren't you kinda spitting in your gods face.
So where would you like us to send you the bills for the care of those children? Since you have failed to take that into consideration or the fact that should you FORCE this upon someone who is not ready to be parent, you put that child at risk. Proof that you don't give a damn about the children.
You're an idiot!
If ia am godless, so are you scot.
Belief is irrelevant.
samyaza
says "also Jesus was a socialist LOL are you serious dude? that is so profound. i think you should try making that part of the hate-theist groupthink. they should also make you their leader and in spite of your grade-school education i've not heard anything dumber even from them. so why would you want to punch that homeless man in the face just because he stole a hot dog from your 2-bit corner hotdog stand? aren't you also a socialist?
I'm an American, so I love the Constitution. I am disgusted by this blatant attempt to subvert citizen rights in favor of corporate power. Those who think that this is a good thing are too short -sighted to understand the real consequences. They have already sold their freedom. Too bad that they are so traitorous as to sell the freedom of others.
tallulah131
why are you crying when samyaza has a free hot dog for you, i say free since all it will cost is a punch in the face from mr tough guy. lol but seriously, have you ever thought of emigrating to the former Soviet Union? i hear there's alot of your godless friends over there. or maybe Canada, there's no draft so you can't use that as an excuse but maybe they'll offer you political asylum since you feel so strongly that everyone should pay for your ole ladies birth control. waaaa.
TruthPrevails1
you're a moron. how am "I" forcing an unwanted pregnancy on anyone? because i don't feel like i should pay for someone else's recreation? next thing you know i'll be responsible for someone else's wine habit, after all doctors say wine is good for your health. have you ever thought of emigrating to Canada, they have "free" health care up there.
"I wonder is seeing other people suppressed is their idea of "freedom"?"
Bingo, Akira! One of the central tenets of their belief system is that God judges nations as well as men, so they absolutely claim the right to force others into their own belief to forestall God's judgment on the nation they live in. That's why they run around with their hair on fire every time a SSM law gets struck down...
how were the protected, my employer has the right to tell me i should follow his religion, my freedoms were not protected. because I'm forced to obey christian tenants as a non christian.
It's great news to those who hate the Constitution. It's great news to the incredibly wealthy who are slowly tearing down the protections of the individual in favor of the rule of the corporation. It's great news to people who hate freedom.
BEFORE we get all up in everyone's face (sorry, I realize that we already are), let's read just one small part of the decision. I think that might settle a few problems. (Bear with me, I am having trouble with disqus so this may take a couple of posts or more.)
part 1
Well, I have tried but apparently disqus will not allow the Supreme Court language into this area. So, let me just say to read the first two paragraphs after the words "Opinion of the Court" and I think what it says is as follows.
There are alternatives provided by HHS for non-profit organizations as well as religious organizations that are less burdensome than the current regulations. That means that for closely-held (like family owned) businesses, the same alternative should be applied. They are not making a decision on when life begins. They are not even deciding about the merits on one contraceptive or another, unless I am missing something. They are simply concluding that HHS did not provide evidence that the alternative in place already for other organizations should not be implemented for closely-held for-profit companies as well.
We will see what that means over the next months and years as the predictable new cases emerge and help define in practice what the court decided today. So, let's all keep our powder dry. The story is not over either way.
part 2
This is a victory for the would-be oligarchs who wish to undermine the rights of citizens so that corporations may gain power. Anyone who sees this ruling as a good thing it too foolish to see the bigger picture and should be ashamed.
"We believe life begins at conception.” "...you knit me together in my mother’s womb."
Regarding those people who believe what the quotes above say, I always wonder what sort of existence they think a terminated embryo (whether caused naturally or artificially) will have as an afterlife?
So here's a hypothetical. "God" controls everything, knows you in the womb and all that, and in theory knows everythign that you will one day do. Who's to say that abortions are against "God's" plan. If he;s running the show then he's got a hand in all the "natural" terminations and miscariages; what if abortions are just another of his tools? What if "God" looked at a zygote, peered into its future and saw that it would one day grow to me a murderous psycopath, who lit cute little animals on fire and beat children with them. "God" thinks, "Holy crap, I'm pretty hands off nowadays, but that is not happening on my watch. Drat, mother is I could wait for a miscariage, but should I chance it?...whelp, guess this woman's going to be doing some soul searching and deciding that she just can't keep this baby. there are plenty of things wrong in her life, not bringing a child into it would be a sound conclusion, well go with that."
That may seem a bit facitious, but the point is this. If "God" is an all powerful arbiter of the universe, and he has his plan, how would humans go against it. If we are able to do something, it stands to reason that it is something "God" didn't feel like preventing. Maybe he doesn't have as much of a problem with it as you believe.
it's people who won't take any personal responsibility and want to blame everyone else (including God) when they don't make good decisions; whiners like you who cause chaos and grief in their own families and everyone around them. we've all seen it before, grow up.
Ahhh the irony
Here's scot again, doesn't have anything of value to say, so start with the name calling...and he has the nerve to tell someone else to grow up.
This posted in he wrong place a minute ago.
awanderingscot,
Interesting response. can't say I really see what you're getting at. If it helps I'll give you some background. I don't believe in gods at all, I am certain that organized religions are a mechanism of control, and I believe that at the beggining, middle, and end of the day we are all responsible for our own lives and actions (which is why it is so important that we humans that actually live and die in this world figure out how to work together).
I have no issues with abortion. Late term abortion of a viable fetus is a horrible horrible thing that should only ever happen in the most dire of consequences (when the life of both baby and mother are in serious risk), but for abortion of a non-viable potential human; abortion is a terrible but not unreasonable act. It is unfortunate that a potential life is ended before it has an opportunity to be , but it is the nature of the world we live in that sometimes that is the better option. And that can either be accomplished via a predominately safe medical procedure in a sterile environment, that then provides support for teh woman afterword, or it can be desperate woman taking it into their own hands through malnutrition, drinking, drugs, physical trauma, and amateur operations. If a woman doesn't want a baby, she'll make sure she doesn't ahve it, we can at least protect the life that is already here.
SO, I agree, take responsibility for your own actions, and allow others to take responsibility for theirs. Abortion may not be the thing for you, but there are times when it is what's right for someone else. It's unfrotunate but it's true. Maybe if your god was real he could fix it.
I love it when Christians accuse others of "not taking personal responsibility".
What a joke
Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense considering that their entire religion is based on avoiding personal responsibility by letting Jesus take their punishment.
Mr. Cheesemaker, they love Personal Responsibility(tm)–at least when it for Other People(tm)...
Religious people will rationalize anything they want through their belief.
Because the bible is so open for interpretation, one can rationalize anything an individual wants to.
Irreligious people (hate-theists) will rationalize anything they want through their belief.
Because the bible is not so open for interpretation, only the Godless can rationalize anything an individual wants to.
there, fixed that for you.
Snotty: "Because the bible is not so open for interpretation"
L O L!!!
Sorry, Snotty, the evidence is overwhelming. How many differing sects are there now? Over 41,000?? Wow.
scot
In your lame attempt to fix what was not broken, you show your extreme ignorance.
Your bible has been used throughout history to justify many, many atrocities.
NOT believing has not.
According to the bible, god is necessarily responsible for every abortion ever performed. He is therefore likewise responsible for this. Whatever happens is god's will.
According to the bible, God is not at all responsible for any abortion ever performed. Only the wicked therefore are responsible for this.
there you go, fixed that for you.
Sorry, Snotty – that's just your interpretation. You didn't really fix anything.
awanderingscot has not read the bible.
FROM THE SECOND PARAGRAPH OF THE COMMENTARY:
"After all, the evangelical Greens don't object to 16 of the 20 contraceptive measures mandated for employer coverage by the Affordable Care Act. That puts the family squarely in line with other evangelicals, who largely support the use of birth control by married couples."
AGAIN THE ISSUE IS THAT WOMEN ARE FAILING TO USE THE "FREE" PILLS PROPERLY AND MEN ARE FAILING TO USE INEXPENSIVE CONDOMS. IF THEY DID, THERE WOULD BE LITTLE NEED FOR THINGS LIKE THE MORNING AFTER PILL
The issue is that evangelicals equate proper education of birth control with giving thier kids an OK to fornicate.
So what?
See the Brutal Effects of Stupidity as noted on page one of the comments.
Welcome to the Beginning of American Shiria Law.
Where the Religious Beliefs of and Employer Supersede the Civil Rights of their Employees.
Get Ready for Men to be required to wear Beards and Women Burkas
Get Ready for Christian Scientist Employers to tell their Employees to 'Pray their Cancer Away'
Easy there big fella, that is a bit of a stretch.
put the pipe down and take a deep breath, paranoia will destroy ya.
I fail to see any difference between Christian motivated and inspired laws and Sharia law. If there is one, please explain. Otherwise, he is right. If not for the attempted narrow ruling trying to limit this to "family owned" companies it would certainly set precedent for JW's employees denied blood tranfusions being paid for or Christian Scientists employees from paying for any health care at all and it's all based on theocratic laws.
I will fight for any religions right to practice as they wish as long as they don't stomp of individual rights and freedom of religion which means each person can make their religious moral judgements for themselves which is why there are millions of Christian women who have no problem with these 4 forms of birth control but they are now having their freedom of religion taken out of their hands and decided by their employer. How is that right on any level?
In other news: a couple researches how to kill a unwanted 22 month child in a hot car; another win by those against contraception!
Nah, they just changed there mind.
a couple is most likely in grief right now and here you are accusing them of evil. you should be so proud of yourself.
A baby is dead due to negligence or murder. Either way, those parents should have had an abortion earlier. This one was kind of late term.
You are clearly not one for finding facts before froming an opinion.
They killed their baby and you are supporting them.
I am not the one accusing them of wrong doing, but if I look up how to poison someone, and then two days later a person was found who was close to me , poisoned in the exact way I look up, I should not expect sympathy. THe brought this on himself.
Wow, such lack of care for the innocent child. The people were 100% responsible for him, they are the ones who researched how long it takes a child to die in a hot car; the father is the one who left him in the car...sounds like they're culpable.
I believe in God, not organized religion which just uses God as an excuse to control the masses. Oh, by the way, my Hosea reference was incorrect. It is in Isaiah 13:16 where God authorizes the Hebrews to massacre children, men and pregnant women – my mistake. Your mistake is believing in church related dogma and then trying to force it onto other people. Obama is doing the same thing (in a secular sense) to Hobby Lobby and I'm glad he lost. No one should be permitted to force their views upon others.
So Hobby Lobby should not be allowed to force their view on others? Which is what they are being told they can?
Hypocrit much?
oh but it's ok for the godless to force their views (as in this case) upon others? tell me again why you aren't a hypocrite?
"the godless"..hilarious. Were you raised in the McCarthy era?
Either everyone has a god or gods, or there aren't any gods...so either EVERYONE is godless or everyone has god or gods. Belief in irrelevant.
It is not an atheist view. That is absurd. Atesim is simply NOT believing in gods. It has NOTHING to do with what an individual DOES believe, so your accusation is completley baseless.
Care to try again? Remember, it is unconsttutional to legislate from belief. Not NON-belief.
Do you not see the MAJOR problems SCOTUS decision creates?
I can create a corporation that will not hire christians because I believe all christians are pawns of Satan, since they follow the words of Satan that is the bible, that is OK to you?
I don't believe that drugs are the way to go , so I can exclude coverage for anything other than holistic medicines and praying away cancer?
Try to think BEFORE you post scot, and see if you have a cogent argument, not the strawman you keep trying to build on me.
hate-theism is not a family value.
What is the definiton of "family values" scot.
WHo's family, who's vaules?
How about tangeable words rather than nice sounding but meaningless phrases.
In my family for example, we value questioning baseless beliefs.
it's not enough that the godless were able to push thru their belief system and make abortion legal, now they want everyone to support their belief by paying for it. decidedly immoral.
Snotty: "the godless were able to push thru their belief system "
LOL – oh my – how silly. Just as silly as saying that an atheist "is angry with God".
Someone please give this dolt some Ginkgo and wiggle his head a little – maybe something will start sparking...
scot
What atheists were involved in the legalization of abortion?
I think you will find that most fighting for rights were doctors, nurses, midwives..the vast majority (if not all) were christians.
Just pulling garbage out of your a$$ now scot?
i know it's hard for you to wrap that "free thinking" mind around this concept; but no real child of God would ever even contemplate killing an unborn child. so yes, it was the godless who pushed or supported making abortion legal.
so far scot you use the term "family values" but refuse to define what that means.
You accused me of being comlpicit and therefore a murderer, and you were wrong about that.
you then call "no true scotsman" on your fellow christians who fought for the right to birth control.
You regularly violate the 9th commandment
Do you know how to make a cogent argument, or are you only here to bash logic and reason?
cskoog2014, that is an ignorant hypocritical statement.
cskoog
again, no He does not say the Hebrews will do this, in fact, history shows they did not. it was the Lord stirring up the Medes and Persians against Babylon that is being prophesied by Isaiah. this is in divine retribution for the extrajudicial horror they visited upon Israel.
The complete lack of common sense shown by supporters of this decision is staggering.
I have a solution. Allow Hobby Lobby to openly discriminate against other religions in thier hiring process. Then they can be sure that even if it's covered, they have hired good Christian folk who won't use it.
" Allow Hobby Lobby to openly discriminate against other religions in thier hiring process."
------------------------
It would be interesting to see how many non-Evangelical Christians actually work there today.
They would be smart to to identify themselves.
you have proof of this?
don't like it? don't go to work for them. everyone is happy.
Want to help? Invent a better condom. http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/25/health/bill-gates-condom-challenge
Let's remember that this case before the SCOTUS has nothing to do with religion.
At the heart of this case Hobby Lobby is merely the willing tool of the the GOP agenda to say "no" to everything attempted by our government to benefit all Americans and religion is but a pretext. This is nothing but politics as usual.
For an employer to really want to prevent access to well established and generally accepted medication for their employees is grotesquely immoral.
If I read the review correctly, Hobby Lobby et al's insurance plans do pay for the Pill and condoms. Used properly and hopefully together to get double the protection, there would be very few unplanned pregnancies.
Not yet but they might in the near future. Of course condoms at ~30 cents each, I doubt if any male is going to take the ACA to court about getting "free" condoms.
1) Are male-based contraceptive methods, such as vasectomies or condoms, covered by the rule?
An HHS official said on Friday that women’s preventive services guidelines apply to women only.
Guidelines issued by the Health Resources and Services Administration, part of HHS, require coverage without cost sharing for "all Food and Drug Administration-approved contraceptive methods, sterilization procedures and patient education and counseling for all women with reproductive capacity" as prescribed by a provider, according to the Federal Register.
The insurers' letter from September says they interpreted the rule to include only female-based contraception and that the requirement to waive co-payments "does not apply to methods and procedures intended for males."
But Adam Sonfield, senior public policy associate at the Guttmacher Inst-itute, a reproductive health research group, says the language is unclear, and it would be foolish to exclude vasectomies. For one thing, he says, they are less expensive and pose a lower risk of complications than female surgical sterilization methods. Plus, he says, waiving co-payments for services for one se-x but not the other raises issues of discrimination. "
“I can’t see how it would be in anyone’s interest to treat them differently,” says Sonfield."
well 1700's here we come.
i can imagine the founding fathers of this once great nation are rolling over in their graves as to see what is being done to it now.
a win for our youngest and most vulnerable today !
And a potential loss for future generations as we lose one more tool for resposible population growth.
God loves a good abortion.
From Planned Parenthood:
"Morning-After Pill (Emergency Contraception) at a Glance
Birth control you can use to prevent pregnancy up to five days (120 hours) after unprotected s-ex
Two kinds of emergency contraception — morning-after pill and ParaGard IUD insertion
Safe and effective
Available at health centers and drugstores
Costs vary from $30 to $65 for the morning-after pill and $500 to $900 for IUD insertion"
And I do believe most women can afford $30-60. Of course, if her impregnator had used a condom ( ~ 32 cents with free prime shipping from Amazon), she and he would have saved a lot of money and potential STD exposure.
– See more at: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-info/morning-after-pill-emergency-contraception#sthash.n8AZ5crE.dpuf
let em pay with their own money if they want to murder their unborn.
no it's not
a win for our youngest and most vulnerable today !
obviously contraception is not the same as abortion, don't try creating a straw man here. your twisted morality wants me to pay for someone else's moral lapses. if a stranger, a young man or young woman came up to me on the street and demanded that i give them money for contraceptives would i be obligated to accommodate them? of course not, but that is something you BELIEVE i should have to do. sick and twisted belief you have.
Snotty: "if a stranger, a young man or young woman came up to me on the street and demanded that i give them money for contraceptives would i be obligated to accommodate them? of course not, but that is something you BELIEVE i should have to do."
Good grief, Snotty – who is asking you to personally do that? Dramatize much?
This was a terrible blow to those of us who believe that this is a country of the people, by the people and for the people. This unconstitutional act grants businesses the same rights as citizens - something our Founding Fathers NEVER wished.
Obviously Scot was saying that the idea that contraception =/= abortion is not difficult to grasp.
No, not really. Poor attempt at humor on my part.
get what? that's it's my responsibility to cover moral lapses?
I love the picture... women celebrating the loss of their health benefits... yay!
Another example of brain damage caused by religion.
you lose
You are an imbecile... "I" have lost nothing. Women on the other hand continue to suffer from the ignorance that is religion.
You stupid traitor, scot. The freedom of citizens is being eroded by this corrupt Supreme Court, in favor of the rights of businesses. This is a loss for anyone who loves the Constitution.
Tallulah, they believe the only Real People(tm) are corporations, CEOs, and fetuses. And fetuses only until they're born; after that, the Little Moocher(tm) is on its own...
So now a christian company can keep women out of management because the bible says they are subservient to men.
WOOO HOOO!
Excuse me, I meant AMEN!
you lose
How very mature of you scot...by the way, the COUNTRY lost...not me personally.
Did you have to post on every one that they lost? when they were not personally involved.
Seriously scot...try growing up.
a win for our youngest and most vulnerable today !
you support and therefore you are complicit.
I support what and there for am complicit in what?
I do not support abortion as a method of birth control. I find the practice abhorrant.
But forcing my belief to the point of legislation is unconst!tutional.
You do not know me scot...do not presume to know what I believe because , in this case, you are once again FLAT OUT WRONG... violate the 9th commandment much scot?
If I had been aborted, I would never know it would I? I was already nothing and will have returned to nothing. If god(s) already know us then it shouldn't matter if we live in this world.
I believe it's over, Hobby Lobby just won!
The decision is in, but it is limited to closely owned companies. The war is far from over.
you lose.
The country lost.
It isn't over, it just started.
you lose
you lose
No harm will come to those who support abortion and contraception if SCOTUS favors the Green family. The state of Michigan found a fair compromise. People can purchase additional insurance modules. This way both views are protected.
Actually Sean it isn't a solution that protects both views. It is still allowing a religious belief of a for profit business to force it's religious beliefs upon its employees by forcing them to buy separate insurance coverage when they should never have to do such. Hobby Lobby as a for profit business should comply or become a non-profit, or shut down their business.
peggyloonan
Conception: the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both. -from the dictionary-.
you seem to have forgotten the definition of a new life. no one, not even the mother has the right to end that life. it's disgusting a woman would even consider doing something like this. (only in cases where the life of the mother is in jeopardy is there moral justification)
awanderingscot,
what if very early in the process they realize that teh baby will be born with a terrible genetic disease that will ensure it dies as a child and only after a short life of horrible suffereing. If the parents can't bare to face that and don't want to put the child through it, would abortion be acceptable to you in that case?
how often is it known early that a child will be born with a terrible genetic disease?
I hear what you are saying but you aren't hearing me. Women's bodies tell them at implantation that they are pregnant not at fertilization. For MEDICAL SCIENCE then a pregnancy doesn't begin until implantation therefore NO female hormonal birth control interferes AFTER implantation or in other words cause an abortion. Anyone may believe different than what medical science says and act PERSONALLY upon that belief but to burden all women with that belief is unethical and immoral. Religious belief then infringes upon others rights. Probably what's going to happen here is that the Govt will step in as they have with Churches and non-profits who object and provide the birth control for women of these companies. And all that means? Is that Hobby Lobby still pays for it because they pay taxes. They may have won a battle here – for now anyway – but they didn't win the war.
awanderingscot,
Interesting response. can't say I really see what you're getting at. If it helps I'll give you some background. I don't believe in gods at all, I am certain that organized religions are a mechanism of control, and I believe that at the beggining, middle, and end of the day we are all responsible for our own lives and actions (which is why it is so important that we humans that actually live and die in this world figure out how to work together).
I have no issues with abortion. Late term abortion of a viable fetus is a horrible horrible thing that should only ever happen in the most dire of consequences (when the life of both baby and mother are in serious risk), but for abortion of a non-viable potential human; abortion is a terrible but not unreasonable act. It is unfortunate that a potential life is ended before it has an opportunity to be , but it is the nature of the world we live in that sometimes that is the better option. And that can either be accomplished via a predominately safe medical procedure in a sterile environment, that then provides support for teh woman afterword, or it can be desperate woman taking it into their own hands through malnutrition, drinking, drugs, physical trauma, and amateur operations. If a woman doesn't want a baby, she'll make sure she doesn't ahve it, we can at least protect the life that is already here.
SO, I agree, take responsibility for your own actions, and allow others to take responsibility for theirs. Abortion may not be the thing for you, but there are times when it is what's right for someone else. It's unfrotunate but it's true. Maybe if your god was real he could fix it.
I'm not attempting to argue for or against abortion, but this argument makes me question the role of the alleged human soul. If the soul enters the zygote at the exact moment of fertilization, what was it doing before we had our first memories? If there is a time that I had a soul but not aware of it, why should I think that my soul or what is "me" will continue to aware of any afterlife after I die?
We come from the nothing and we return to the nothing.
So what exactly is this "soul" you speak of?