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Hobby Lobby: the Bible verses behind the battle
June 29th, 2014
08:19 PM ET

Hobby Lobby: the Bible verses behind the battle

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Editor

[twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN']

Washington (CNN) – For the Greens, the Christian family behind the Hobby Lobby chain of stores, their battle with the Obama administration was never really about contraception. It was about abortion.

After all, the evangelical Greens don't object to 16 of the 20 contraceptive measures mandated for employer coverage by the Affordable Care Act. That puts the family squarely in line with other evangelicals, who largely support the use of birth control by married couples.

Like other evangelicals, however, the Greens believe that four forms of contraception mandated under the ACA - Plan B, Ella and two intrauterine devices - in fact cause abortions by preventing a fertilized embryo from implanting in the womb. (The Obama administration and several major medical groups disagree that such treatments are abortions .)

“We won’t pay for any abortive products," Steve Green, Hobby Lobby's president, told Religion News Service. "We believe life begins at conception.”

Evangelicals as a whole may be relative newcomers to that view, but since the 1980s it has become nearly gospel. (The Pew Research Center has a helpful guide to other religious groups' stance.)

As Christianity Today editor Mark Galli has argued, evangelicals arrived at their current stand on life issues through a combination of factors, including biblical interpretation, moral accounting and political calculus. Others also add the influence of early architects of the religious right and the example of the Catholic Church, which has opposed abortion for centuries.

But given the importance of scripture to evangelicals, it's no surprise that groups like the National Association of Evangelicals cite the Bible in the second sentence of their policy stance on abortion:

And because the Bible reveals God's calling and care of persons before they are born, the preborn share in this dignity (Psalm 139:13).

You'll see that verse, Psalm 139:13, cited quite a bit when it comes to evangelicals and abortion. In it, the psalmist says to God, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb."

(You'll also see that verse cited by many Mennonites, so it makes sense that a Mennonite business, Conestoga Wood Specialties, joined a companion challenge to Hobby Lobby at the Supreme Court.)

If God knew you in the womb, the thinking goes, then you must have been at some stage of personhood, and that provides biblical justification for the idea that life begins at conception, according to evangelicals and other Christians.

In addition to Psalm 139, you'll also hear evangelicals and Mennonites cite several other Bible passages that they believe affirm the sanctity of human life.

Genesis 1, for example, says that mankind is made in God's image; the Ten Commandments make murder a crime against God; and Job, the old Testament sufferer, frets about what would happen if he mistreats his servants because:

Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?

Again, you see the divine and womb interacting, which is why evangelicals like the Greens so strongly oppose contraception that prevents embryo implantation in the womb.

Still, those verses may not be on the Greens' minds after Monday's decision. Instead, Steve Green has said, they'll be thinking about Daniel 3:17-18

If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us from Your Majesty’s hand. But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Abortion • Belief • Bible • Bioethics • Christianity • Church and state • Culture wars • evangelicals • Health care • Obama • Politics

soundoff (2,278 Responses)
  1. bostontola

    This Hobby Lobby case is curious.

    A corporation is an enti.ty created by humans that is treated as a legal person. So now that corporation has the protection of its religious rights.

    So one man made enti.ty (the corporation), is protected against Govt intrusion of its belief in another man made ent.ity (God).

    Humans are a piece of work.

    July 4, 2014 at 11:02 am |
    • tallulah131

      Our Founding Fathers created this nation to be of the people, by the people and for the people. The wealthy and the religious have been fighting ever since to destroy this grand experiment.

      July 4, 2014 at 1:15 pm |
      • bostontola

        tal,
        You and I see things differently. It's hard to get 20 people to agree on what to do for the weekend. That 300 million people peacefully hand power over every 4 years is remarkable.

        Have a happy 4th.

        July 4, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
        • tallulah131

          I'm not sure how we disagree. 300 million people peacefully handing power over every 4 years is our system working exactly the Founding Fathers designed. We choose our leaders. These things are not chosen by bloodline or religious decree. We decide our own laws - as long as they fall under the umbrella of a Constitution written with the protection of individual freedom in mind.

          Do you think that that the actions of the religious right and those super wealthy individuals who buy elections indicate that they respect the Constittution?

          July 4, 2014 at 2:36 pm |
        • bostontola

          tal,
          Well said. Many don't respect the Const. and many don't even understand it. The genius of the system is that it is robust to that and works anyway. The key is separation of power. No one can buy, or acquire by any means too much power. They can distort but they can't break us.

          July 4, 2014 at 2:48 pm |
        • tallulah131

          I'm not as certain as you are. I used to think that the Supreme Court was the sane center of our government. Now it's loaded with republicans who appear to be bought and paid for, while the rest of our government is so divided you'd hardly think they represent the same nation. I think we're on shaky ground right now. I hope I'm wrong.

          July 4, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
        • multiversatile

          They do not "hand over power" every four years. They hand over the illusion of power. Don't think so? Then why are Republican leaders threatening to sue Obama for his use of executive orders?

          July 4, 2014 at 4:34 pm |
        • bostontola

          The vitriol and selfishness of politicians and special interests are not new. If you read the newspapers from 200 years ago, it was brutal. I wouldn't say I'm certain, I'm confident.

          July 4, 2014 at 4:35 pm |
        • bostontola

          Multiversatile,
          Because there is separation of powers. Federal executive power is handed over.

          July 4, 2014 at 4:38 pm |
        • tallulah131

          Multi: What is meant by handing over power, in my opinion, is hiring people to do the job of administrating the day to day operation of the nation, hoping that they are trust-worthy while at the same time knowing that if they are not, you have very little recourse but to wait the four years until the next election. In a very real sense, the public is handing over handing over power every election.

          boston: I know that this is not the first time the government has been damaged by corruption. But to me it seems the timing of it - when we have a divided population more influenced by the ever-present, privately owned media rather than education - leaves the door is wide open for a crisis.

          July 4, 2014 at 4:54 pm |
        • bostontola

          tal,
          I'm not saying it will be all smooth sailing. I agree that we will have crises. I'm saying I think we will weather the crises and persist. I think the pressure from China will be a wake up call. At first we will panic, then we will get our sh!t together and rise again. The medical and technological advances will also usher in a time of great improvement to the human condition. Like I said, there will be growing pains, but I'm confident we will make it.

          July 4, 2014 at 5:12 pm |
    • abuthalius

      Well said. It is indeed a wild time when the Supreme Court gets involved in the rights of one imaginary being to worship a second imaginary being.

      July 4, 2014 at 10:13 pm |
      • abuthalius

        Ah for an edit button. I meant "imaginary" in the sense of something created by humans who then think it's real, not in the sense of not existing.

        July 4, 2014 at 10:17 pm |
        • bostontola

          Exactly right.

          July 4, 2014 at 11:02 pm |
  2. Bob

    The whole Jesus story that Vic keeps pestering us with is a steaming pile of bull-do. Vic, how is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.

    Happy Independence Day! Break free of religion today.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

    July 4, 2014 at 10:31 am |
    • multiversatile

      Shh. Critical thinking just makes their heads hurt.

      July 4, 2014 at 4:35 pm |
    • kermit4jc

      Vic, how is it again that your omnipotent being couldn’t do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla?<–God is a JUST God..he is not doing things based on feelings..He has a nature of being JUST...sins HAD to be paid for....eternal death (hell) is the payment..he cannot change that..to do so, he ceases to be God..you on the other hand are covnfused cause you keep thinking in terms of humans..humans base things on what they feel to be morally right or wrong...tiotally different ball park with God

      July 4, 2014 at 5:54 pm |
      • Bob

        Next time. Kermit, actually try to answer the questions (not that I think you can). Again:

        How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.

        Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
        Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
        http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

        July 4, 2014 at 6:45 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I DID answer it..WHAT is wrong with the anser I gave? how is it NOT an answer? I said GOD could NOT do this cause he is a JUST God by nature..he doesn't do it based on feelings as we do....

          July 4, 2014 at 6:48 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          pretty weak argument oni your part..ipowre cannot change his nature....its illogical....think of it..if he could change his nature by power..then he ceas4es to be God..and if that is possible..then how does he have the power to do it in first place? see...YOu get caught in a circular argument....with your logic

          July 4, 2014 at 6:49 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          Please explain again why God can't just impregnate another engaged woman whenever he wants.

          July 4, 2014 at 6:52 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Please explain again why God can’t just impregnate another engaged woman whenever he wants.<--HUH? whats yourpoint...

          July 4, 2014 at 6:57 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          Go back and read Bob's question and your pitiful answer.

          July 4, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I answered..why do you not like the answer? God cannot do it cause he is god..he cannot change.now tell me why you think I di dnot answer it this time??

          July 7, 2014 at 1:45 am |
  3. dandintac

    Happy Independence Day to everyone!

    July 4, 2014 at 1:59 am |
  4. Vic

    ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰

    ★★★★

    Happy 4th of July — Independence Day — Everyone

    ♪♫
    May it be forever so true
    Believe in that I really do
    God bless the USA
    The true Red, White & Blue
    ♫♪

    July 4, 2014 at 12:04 am |
    • Reality

      No, he is not.

      "The Two Universal Sects

      They all err—Moslems, Jews,
      Christians, and Zoroastrians:

      Humanity follows two world-wide sects:
      One, man intelligent without religion,
      The second, religious without intellect. "

      Al-Ma'arri
      , born AD 973 /, died AD 1058 / .

      Al-Ma’arri was a blind Arab philosopher, poet and writer.[1][2] He was a controversial rationalist of his time, attacking the dogmas of religion and rejecting the claim that Islam possessed any monopoly on truth."

      And a happy 4th of July to one and all !!!!!!

      July 4, 2014 at 12:26 am |
      • ragansteve1

        And a happy 4th of July to you as well.

        However, I would say that there is a third option. That God created man with and intellect. And that intellect will one day, if we do not destroy ourselves, prove that there is a God. Because it is not just about religion. It is about reality. And there can be only two. Either we are material beings in a material world with no spiritual world existing. Or we are in a world where everything, material and spiritual, is part of the same world. And by "world" I mean everything that exists or has existed. Humanists would have us believe the former. Spiritualists would have us believe the latter. So, we must choose.

        For me and my house, we will choose the Lord.

        Again, happy independence day!

        July 4, 2014 at 4:53 am |
        • Reality

          And after 200,000 years of searching, an update: (for the new members of this blog)

          The Apostles' Creed 2014: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

          Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
          and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
          human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

          I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
          preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
          named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
          girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

          Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
          the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

          He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
          a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
          Jerusalem.

          Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
          many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
          and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
          Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
          grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
          and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
          called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

          Amen
          (references used are available upon request)

          July 4, 2014 at 8:05 am |
        • bostontola

          steve,
          Happy 4th to you and all.

          If there is God, no finite intelligence can prove (or disprove) it. Proof of God is much simpler than that. God just needs to show up. Just like he purportedly did many times in biblical times. God could simultaneously manifest to every human on earth and do something that is supernatural.

          Disproving God is like disproving the Tooth Fairy. You can't do it.

          Religion is another matter. While you can't disprove God, religions have man made stories that can be tested. The bible stories don't test well if you consider them literally true. If you consider them allegory, then they can't be tested, but then they also can't be considered absolute truth because they are interpreted differently by each human.

          July 4, 2014 at 10:35 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "So, we must choose"

          No we don't have to choose. We can withhold acceptance of claims until the people making the claims meets their burdan of proof.

          July 4, 2014 at 12:58 pm |
        • abuthalius

          Cheesemaker, you are so right. There's no rule that we have to choose belief or disbelief. We'd be much better off to choose exploration. Life is for learning.

          July 4, 2014 at 10:31 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          abuthalius,

          Exactly, I will change my mind when better information comes available...but the arguments in support of CHristianity get worse the more they are inverstigated.

          July 5, 2014 at 12:17 am |
    • tallulah131

      The music notes are a nice touch.

      July 4, 2014 at 1:16 pm |
  5. Blessed are the Cheesemakers

    If you believe eternal punishment for finite "crimes" is ok on one hand and God is loving on the other, then I think you may be confused.

    July 3, 2014 at 11:36 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Meant as a reply to Robert Brown below...

      July 3, 2014 at 11:38 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      Blessed,

      The only crime that will result in eternal punishment is the rejection of God's offer.

      July 4, 2014 at 10:15 am |
      • bostontola

        Even the notion of eternal punishment is immoral. Good thing that notion was invented by humans and can't be carried out.

        July 4, 2014 at 10:20 am |
        • Robert Brown

          Boston,

          Why do you think eternal punishment is immoral? Do you think abortion is immoral?

          July 4, 2014 at 10:44 am |
        • observer

          Robert Brown,

          Do you think the torturous drowning of EVERY fetus and embryo on the face of the earth was MORAL?

          July 4, 2014 at 10:50 am |
        • kermit4jc

          how do you know it was torturous? were you there? If youre talking about a God taking the lives of babys and others...how do you know he allowed it to be long and such...how about quick death? Again..Remember..this "suppossed" God is in control of it all (I say supposed since you don't believe there is one..but you argue for the sake that one should exist..then...)

          July 4, 2014 at 5:58 pm |
        • bostontola

          Robert,
          According to your story, God created humans with imperfect minds. It is apparent that human minds are also quite varied. Some people are smarter than others, some are more empathetic than others, some are braver than others, and some are more suggestible than others.

          The less suggestible people, the skeptics, need objective evidence to believe something. Suggestible people don't. That creates a huge advantage for suggestible people. Even if there weren't hell, and only suggestible people got eternal life, that would be immoral. When you add in the eternal pain of hell, it is unimaginably immoral.

          The God you believe in created us unequally and stacked the deck in favor of some and against others. Since you also proclaim your God is moral, that is in conflict with the rules of the afterlife. Therefore that notion of God is false.

          July 4, 2014 at 10:56 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Robert,

          It is not an "offer" it is an ultimatum.

          July 4, 2014 at 12:46 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Boston,

          I am also a skeptic. God gave me what I needed to believe. Therefore, I am confident he can do the same for anyone.

          He encourages people to try him.

          July 4, 2014 at 4:04 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Your definition of "skeptic" is dubious at best.

          July 4, 2014 at 4:18 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          whats immoral about eternal punishment?

          July 4, 2014 at 5:48 pm |
        • bostontola

          kermit,
          That was Robert's question.

          I answered it in the post 4 above yours addressed to Robert.

          July 4, 2014 at 6:00 pm |
        • evidencenot

          @ kermi "how about quick death? "

          Oh, that's MUCH better.

          July 7, 2014 at 1:52 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          why not? we ALL die.....or are you in denial?

          July 8, 2014 at 2:19 am |
        • evidencenot

          Yup, we all die but nothing to do with an imaginary god that murders children.

          July 8, 2014 at 9:21 am |
      • Doris

        Call me nutty, but I need good evidence to support the validity of threats and grand promises.

        Better evidence than writings of unknown authorship making claims about the divinity of the writings of others.

        Better evidence than claims made in writings of unknown authorship.

        Better evidence than hearsay.

        July 4, 2014 at 10:26 am |
        • Robert Brown

          Doris,

          Has God made his offer to you? I don't think you'll get any better evidence than that.

          July 4, 2014 at 10:48 am |
        • Doris

          No offers, Robert. I've listened to many a snake-oil salesman, though.

          July 4, 2014 at 11:03 am |
        • bostontola

          Robert,
          No God has made me any offer. If it had, I wouldn't be an atheist. Many humans have made me offers on the behalf of many Gods. All those offers seem preposterous to me.

          July 4, 2014 at 11:08 am |
        • Robert Brown

          Doris & Boston,

          I believe God will make his offer to you. He does use humans to say the words, but it is the Holy Spirit that presents those words to your soul.

          July 4, 2014 at 11:26 am |
        • bostontola

          Robert,
          I appreciate the good tidings. I hope you enjoy Independence Day.

          July 4, 2014 at 11:33 am |
        • Doris

          I certainly would not say that there is no possibility of the existence of a higher intelligence, Robert. But I think you can see from my initial reply why reasons for distrusting the claims made for the Abrahamic God.

          July 4, 2014 at 11:36 am |
        • Doris

          Yes and a Happy 4th you both of you as well!

          July 4, 2014 at 11:36 am |
        • Doris

          Sorry – that one line should have been: "But I think you can see from my initial reply why I have reasons ..."

          July 4, 2014 at 11:37 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "Has God made his offer to you?"

          No

          "I don't think you'll get any better evidence than that."

          My thoghts exactly.

          July 4, 2014 at 12:50 pm |
        • tallulah131

          Robert, your personal conviction that your god makes offers has no actual bearing on reality. You apparently had an emotional experience, but emotions are easily manipulated. The only offers I have received are from humans who claim to speak for your god. But not once have I heard or seen anything from your god. He is conspicuous by his absence.

          July 4, 2014 at 1:07 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Yes, happy 4th Boston.

          July 4, 2014 at 3:49 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          You have a good sense of humor Blessed, but seriously, when God makes his offer to you, you will have evidence.

          July 4, 2014 at 3:52 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Tallulah,

          There have been emotions involved in my experiences with God. I also believe these experiences have been supernatural.

          July 4, 2014 at 3:57 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Happy 4th Doris.

          July 4, 2014 at 3:59 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Like I said above Robert, it is not an offer, it is an ultimatum. An offer doesn't have threats attached to it. It is a sick concept and to attempt to soften it through flowery language is disengenuous.

          July 4, 2014 at 4:00 pm |
        • tallulah131

          In the right place:

          And there you have it, Robert. Your "offer from god" was an emotional experience that you deem supernatural. Your experience is no different than any other true believer of any other god. So why should yours be any more credible?

          I am not a person ruled by my emotions. I strongly suspect that people who claim to have experienced the "supernatural" are simply looking at an unexpected or unfamiliar natural phenomena through the filter of emotion and are thus unreliable witnesses.

          I will not believe in a god until I am presented with proof. It's been thousands of years and there have been thousands of gods, but not a single shred of evidence. In light of that fact, I think that disbelief is entirely reasonable.

          July 4, 2014 at 4:13 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Call me nutty, but I need good evidence to support the validity of threats <-so, when someone on the road warns you the bridge is out..don't go down there or you'll get killed...you gonna go make sure the bridge is out..see it with your own eyes? Or you going to take it on faith the guy is telling the truth and go another direction?

          July 4, 2014 at 5:49 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....if I'm going to base my entire life on whether or not that bridge is out, you can bet I'm going to go down and check for myself.

          July 6, 2014 at 2:03 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          GREAT! CHeck it out..good job...same with God...in basing my WHOLE life on it..Im going to check it out for myself..IM nmot goin g to tke it as a threat or such as others have

          July 7, 2014 at 2:08 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....I did check it out. The mythology of any god, yours included, doesn't pass the smell test.

          July 7, 2014 at 10:56 am |
        • kermit4jc

          BUT no one has shown it to be hearsay! bring evidence it is hearsay

          July 4, 2014 at 5:50 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Kermit,

          That is a BS analogy. The guy who is warning about the bridge being out took the bridge out himself...and has the ability to repair it instantly but chooses not to....he wrns people that an ivnisible bridge he built that no one can confirm is out....one that he could fix. And even if someone is completely wrong about the situation, what in the world would make being wrong worthy of "eternal punishment"? Fear and coercion is not a justification for belief.

          July 4, 2014 at 6:49 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          uhh....don't kill the messenger...it is a good anaology.....and God DID "fix it" by the way..He gave a detour..which is a BETTER way.....you wanna go the old way..be my guest..the POINT here is....again..do YOU need to g oto the bridge itself and see that it is out..or will you take the word of the messenger? IM opting that you will go see the bridge for yourself

          July 4, 2014 at 6:56 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          I would kill the messanger. I don't believe him...or you. You have not shown that you can demonstrate any of the BS you spew.

          And god "fixed" it by torturing and killing a person....sick, sick, sick.

          July 4, 2014 at 7:13 pm |
        • tallulah131

          Stupid analogy, kermit. The thing about real bridges is if they are out, you can verify the situation. This is why people want evidence before taking supernatural threats seriously. You can't even prove that your "bridge" actually exists.

          July 4, 2014 at 7:31 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Above should say "I wouldn't kill the messanger"....

          July 4, 2014 at 11:53 pm |
  6. truthfollower01

    God is in a distinct position apart from man. God not only creates life, but God is always enabling life (giving the next heart beat and next breath that you and I take). Our every second of existence is dependent upon God giving us that. We as men do not have this responsibility. I don't see God as owing me anything, including another breath. If He chooses not to give me this, God has done me no wrong. In fact it would be a greater blessing from the Christian perspective because I would then get to inherit eternal life and be with my Savior, whom I long to see. To the Christian, death is a blessing. It is when we get to leave this life to inherit something far greater. Obviously, when you factor in sin and the rebellion of man, it shows that we are deserving of death.

    July 3, 2014 at 9:32 pm |
    • kenmargo

      "God is in a distinct position apart from man. God not only creates life, but God is always enabling life (giving the next heart beat and next breath that you and I take). Our every second of existence is dependent upon God giving us that. We as men do not have this responsibility."

      Are you telling me I'm NOT the father of my children?

      "I don't see God as owing me anything, including another breath. If He chooses not to give me this, God has done me no wrong. In fact it would be a greater blessing from the Christian perspective because I would then get to inherit eternal life and be with my Savior, whom I long to see."

      If you really long to see him, you know what you could do right?

      " To the Christian, death is a blessing. It is when we get to leave this life to inherit something far greater. Obviously, when you factor in sin and the rebellion of man, it shows that we are deserving of death."

      Speak for yourself man.

      July 3, 2014 at 9:46 pm |
    • gulliblenomore

      TF....got any real verifiable proof of any of that BS you are spouting? I'm not sure how even you can believe such nonsense. If any of that babbling BS would be true, then I'm guessing all atheists would be struggling to live and all religious nuts would be living high on the hog, but of course that is not the case. Usually, it's just the opposite. Your god must be confused.

      July 3, 2014 at 9:46 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "To the Christian, death is a blessing. It is when we get to leave this life to inherit something far greater. Obviously, when you factor in sin and the rebellion of man, it shows that we are deserving of death."

      Wow...that's pretty creepy...

      July 3, 2014 at 11:22 pm |
      • gulliblenomore

        Cheese....when I read that, I thought it was one of the most creepy things I've ever read here. And this nut is walking around with the rest of us! I wish there was some way to permanently stamp their foreheads with a Jesus fish or something so we could avoid them in real life.

        July 4, 2014 at 10:05 am |
        • Doris

          Agreed.

          July 4, 2014 at 10:12 am |
      • Robert Brown

        It isn't really creepy if you consider the context. A believer when filled and yielded to the spirit is ready to go. The flesh does not want to die. The flesh wants to live. A believer yielded to the flesh wouldn't make that statement because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. For the same reason, Paul said he found himself doing things he didn't want to do and not doing things he wanted to do. The battle rages within every believer, flesh against the spirit.

        July 4, 2014 at 10:28 am |
        • observer

          Robert Brown,

          It's not only creepy, it's just more proof that many Christians don't have much appreciation for the world that they say God created for them. It's not much of an endorsement to be so happy to leave it.

          July 4, 2014 at 10:42 am |
        • tallulah131

          It's even more creepy when you consider the context. These sad people have been convinced that this life is not as valuable as their death - all on the basis of hearsay and insubstantiable promises. What horrible brainwashing.

          July 4, 2014 at 1:11 pm |
    • dandintac

      Please provide some hard, verifiable, testable evidence for this god you claim exists. Otherwise that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed just as easily.

      July 4, 2014 at 1:40 am |
    • Doris

      Nothing surprising here. Most cults that attempt to answer the mysteries of the universe are set up to dissuade their worshippers from escaping through fear and rewards for which evidence cannot be shown.

      July 4, 2014 at 9:57 am |
    • cskoog2014

      Hey truthfollower – If in fact you Christians regard "death as a blessing" then why are you all afraid to die just like the rest of us? For ye are as the Pharisees and I call ye hypocrites!

      July 4, 2014 at 10:03 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        then why are you all afraid to die just like the rest of us<–who says we are all afraid to die????

        July 7, 2014 at 1:50 am |
  7. Robert Brown

    If you believe abortion is ok on one hand and God is evil on the other, then I think you may be confused. Legal abortion allows a women to decide whether to carry a child to term, or kill the child. She has reasons for her decision, do you think she is evil if she chooses to kill her unborn child? If you don't think she is evil, how can you call God evil for killing?

    July 3, 2014 at 8:46 pm |
    • In Santa We Trust

      The point is the double standard involved. Christians say that the bible condemns abortion and that the bible is the word of god and when you read the rest of the bible, god does a significant amount of killing. Then there's the belief that god controls all so would presumably be responsible for miscarriages.

      July 3, 2014 at 8:55 pm |
      • Robert Brown

        Santa,

        If my understanding of the bible is correct, Thou shall not kill means don't commit premeditated murder, in modern terms.

        July 3, 2014 at 9:21 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          Compare that to the Noah story.

          July 3, 2014 at 9:28 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Yes, do compare it. God killed all those people for a reason, the expectant mother kills her unborn child for a reason, do you think they are both evil?

          July 3, 2014 at 9:38 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          RB.....it all depends on if you believe that a group of cells is a baby or just a group of cells. And yeah, I do agree that the god of the bible was evil.

          July 3, 2014 at 9:53 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          It killed more than people but leaving that indiscriminate killing aside, you're saying that all humans other than Noah's family were evil? That includes unborn, babies, and children. Wouldn't they have been created by an omnipotent, omniscient god so really god only has itself to blame for a) creating evil humans and b) not being able to devise a better solution.

          July 3, 2014 at 9:52 pm |
        • observer

          Robert Brown,

          Can you become possibly the first Christian in history to identify ONE CRIME or SIN committed by ALL the fetuses and embryos on the face of the planet that justified God's killing them?

          July 4, 2014 at 12:08 am |
      • Reality

        Again the nitty-gritty: (leaving religion out of the issues)

        The reality of se-x, abortion, contraception and STD/HIV control: – from an atheist guy who enjoys intelligent se-x-

        Note: Some words hyphenated to defeat an obvious word filter. ...

        The Brutal Effects of Stupidity:

        : The failures of the widely used birth "control" methods i.e. the Pill (8.7% actual failure rate) and male con-dom (17.4% actual failure rate) have led to the large rate of abortions and S-TDs in the USA. Men and women must either recognize their responsibilities by using the Pill or co-ndoms properly and/or use safer methods in order to reduce the epidemics of abortion and S-TDs.- Failure rate statistics provided by the Gut-tmacher Inst-itute. Unfortunately they do not give the statistics for doubling up i.e. using a combination of the Pill and a condom.

        Added information before making your next move:

        "Se-xually transmitted diseases (STDs) remain a major public health challenge in the United States. While substantial progress has been made in preventing, diagnosing, and treating certain S-TDs in recent years, CDC estimates that approximately 19 million new infections occur each year, almost half of them among young people ages 15 to 24.1 In addition to the physical and psy-ch-ological consequences of S-TDs, these diseases also exact a tremendous economic toll. Direct medical costs as-sociated with STDs in the United States are estimated at up to $14.7 billion annually in 2006 dollars."
        See also: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/26/opinion/bolan-se-xual-health/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

        And from:

        "Adolescents don’t think or-al se-x is something to worry about (even though is becoming a major cause of throat cancer)," said Bonnie Halpern-Felsher professor of pediatrics at the University of California, San Francisco. "They view it as a way to have intimacy without having 's-ex.'" (Maybe it should be called the Bill Clinton Syndrome !!)

        Obviously, political leaders in both parties, Planned Parenthood, parents, the "stupid part of the USA" and the educational system have failed miserably on many fronts.

        The most effective forms of contraception, ranked by "Perfect use":

        – (Abstinence, 0% failure rate)
        – (Masturbation, mono or mutual, 0% failure rate)

        Followed by:

        One-month injectable and Implant (both at 0.05 percent)
        Vasectomy and IUD (Mirena) (both at 0.1 percent)
        The Pill, Three-month injectable, and the Patch (all at 0.3 percent)
        Tubal sterilization (at 0.5 percent)
        IUD (Copper-T) (0.6 percent)
        Periodic abstinence (Post-ovulation) (1.0 percent)
        Periodic abstinence (Symptothermal) and Male condom (both at 2.0 percent)
        Periodic abstinence (Ovulation method) (3.0 percent)

        Every other method ranks below these, including Withdrawal (4.0), Female condom (5.0), Diaphragm (6.0), Periodic abstinence (calendar) (9.0), the Sponge (9.0-20.0, depending on whether the woman using it has had a child in the past), Cervical cap (9.0-26.0, with the same caveat as the Sponge), and Spermicides (18.0).

        July 4, 2014 at 12:39 am |
      • kermit4jc

        HECk yeah! God is NOT a human being..He is RIGHTEOUS and JUST and HOly..He is GOD..HE gave life.....HE has that right to take it...WE are only humans..we are NOT Holy and Just...we are nOT Creator of all life..WE do NOT reserve that right cause we have nO qualificaiotns to judge such..I think a bit of humble pie is needed here

        July 4, 2014 at 2:45 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          You forgot to add HE is an invention of man to fool man.

          July 4, 2014 at 3:55 am |
        • In Santa We Trust

          How did you determine that a god created life? There's no evidence outside of the bible.

          July 4, 2014 at 11:10 am |
        • kermit4jc

          so yo ubelieve that an uncaused cause made all things here? the universe suddenly came into existence with no help...it just did it on its own? I see that as fairy tales..and IM especially surprised people who like to think of themselves as educated would believe such nonsense...the Universe had a beginning..most scientists agree on that....what they don't agree ion is how did it begin....and without an Intelligent cause..they got nothing but make believe

          July 4, 2014 at 6:01 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          So, our lives mean as much to God as some created SIMs might?

          July 4, 2014 at 1:12 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          NOT at al..We have value and worth cause we were made in His image..youre looking at it from a human perswepctive.as if God was only human and human like qualities (ie being just based on feelings, rather than based on nature) God desires for us to be in eaven....to give us the best..but people become idiots and reject Him and His gifts...thus at judgment...he lets them get what they want.no life with Him..an eternal life in misery cause they get nothing -things they rejected from god

          July 4, 2014 at 6:03 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          I think a bit of LOGIC is needed here.

          July 4, 2014 at 1:22 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          and what was illogical of what I said? I used logic....follow along again

          July 4, 2014 at 6:04 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "WE do NOT reserve that right cause we have nO qualificaiotns to judge such..I think a bit of humble pie is needed here"

          kermit,

          If we have no qualifications to judge such might I ask you you have judged god "Holy and Just"? You just admitted you are not qualified to judge and yet you did. That knife cuts both ways.

          I agree, you need some humble pie.

          July 4, 2014 at 4:07 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          "WE do NOT reserve that right cause we have nO qualificaiotns to judge such.."

          Illogical. We should USE our brains to the maximum, not shut them down.

          July 4, 2014 at 6:09 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          WHERE did I say to shut them down? WHERE did I say we cant use or shouldn't use them to maximum???

          July 4, 2014 at 6:39 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          Read you own nonsense:

          "WE do NOT reserve that right cause we have nO qualificaiotns to judge such.."
          – – kermit4jc

          July 4, 2014 at 6:43 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I agree withit..so what? we do not reserve the right to ake a life..especially of innocent unbon..who had done no wrong except they were conceived and the mother just dot give a f***

          July 4, 2014 at 6:47 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          kermit are you going to answer the question?

          How did you judge god to be holy and just if we as human beings are not qualified to judge...?

          You painted yourself in a corner didn't you...

          July 4, 2014 at 6:52 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          u..comparion?? and when I say we are nto qualified to judge..we are not cause we are only humans who make mistakes..God is holy Righteous and Perfect....and when we compare ourseves..think of it..we di dnot Create all things..god did..he has thepower...WE di dnot give life to all..God did....etc etc

          July 7, 2014 at 1:44 am |
        • dandintac

          Kermit,

          "and when I say we are nto qualified to judge..we are not cause we are only humans who make mistakes.." But Kermit, you DO judge God. You do! You just judge him good! And in the very same sentence!!

          "God is holy Righteous and Perfect…." See, if we are not qualified to judge, then why are you judging God good? If you were not judging, you would say something like "Is God good or bad? I cannot say..."

          Here the difference between us regarding how we are judging. I (and others who question the morality of the God character of the Bible), judge God based on rational grounds. God is bad because he kills people by the millions, not for logical or natural reasons, but for capricious, arbitrary, and sometimes, frankly, silly or repugnant reasons. You on the other hand judge God good because your religious dogma tells you that is how you must judge. I'm sure that's not how you like to word it, but basically that is the case.

          July 7, 2014 at 9:57 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          your argument sidesteps the issue

          July 8, 2014 at 2:31 am |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc

          "but people become idiots and reject Him and His gifts"
          You see, Greek neopagans could just as easily claim that people are idiots for not realizing that Zeus and his family of gods are the actual ones bestowing all good things. Unless you can somehow prove what you say, it's just an empty claim.

          Me, I'm just not convinced that any god ever actually existed. Unless all gods were once real, it just seems obvious that humans have invented at least some of them. Since I really can't see much difference between any other god and God, including his tendency to have very human emotions, I'm inclined to think that even he is an invented deity. That's not a claim of actually knowing that no god exists anywhere, just a statement that I don't find your claim convincing.

          SIMs are created in our image too, but we feel no compunction in spending them as we feel fit in order to play our games, and God similarly seemed only too willing to kill all the Egyptian firstborn, who were also humans presumably made in his image, just to demonstrate his power to the Hebrews.

          How does "no life with him" automatically equal a "life of misery"? What's wrong with just letting us die? Seems a little too spiteful for a being to go out of his way to punish those who simply didn't notice him, which is another reason for me to suspect that he's more a human invention than an actual, eternal being beyond our failings.

          July 5, 2014 at 1:27 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          because merley letting you die loses the dignity yo uhave a a free will agent..plus...we are given souls and such which live for eternity.....those who reject God will live a miserable eternity because they will have nO hope..NO peace, NO joy..since those come only from God....and when one rejects God..they reject His gifst that he offers

          July 7, 2014 at 2:04 am |
        • igaftr

          kermit
          "except they were conceived and the mother just dot give a f***"

          Has no one explained how a child in conceived to you yet?
          If the mother does not give a f***, then she will not conceive. Basic biology.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:45 pm |
      • cskoog2014

        Santa – You are correct, god does a lot of killing all right. Check out Isaiah 13:16 where he authorizes the mass slaughter of children and pregnant women. Funny how the Christians never mention that scripture among so many others that fail to support their pro-life rhetoric. Hypocrites!

        July 4, 2014 at 10:12 pm |
        • evidencenot

          Christians have their special answer cue cards.....

          1) You're taking that out of context
          2) God is beyond our understanding
          3) It is ok for god to kill even though he has told us not to kill
          4) When god kills it's not "murder"
          etc, etc, etc.....

          it's also perfectly acceptable to make ridiculous claims without any evidence to support them yet state them as "fact"

          July 7, 2014 at 2:58 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          That is because they don't know the difference between 'belief' and 'proof'

          July 7, 2014 at 3:00 pm |
        • idiotusmaximus

          it’s also perfectly acceptable to make ridiculous claims without any evidence to support them yet state them as “fact”...

          That's why people are religious...you can know nothing and have answers for everything that will sense to yourself.

          July 7, 2014 at 7:42 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          and to some like you..it makes no sense cauyse you don't actually think thru them...God is JUDge....and HE gave all life..not us....thus GOD reserves that right to take life..as for contrext..seems to me you HATE context and you lOVE to make up things as you go whenever you converse with anyone else..or read any kind of literature...so hows that fantasy world coming along then?

          July 8, 2014 at 2:23 am |
    • kenmargo

      Rob the same pro lifers are pro gun and anti health reform. These people have zero credibility when It comes to "life" This isn't about the bible, god, lord or jesus. These people are no different than the terrorists in the middle east. They just want things the way they want them.

      July 3, 2014 at 9:02 pm |
      • gulliblenomore

        RB....also....how can these lunatics call themselves pro-life yet totally support capital punishment? Seems a little contradictive to me. And, if you really read the bible, you would have to agree that the god of the bible is the biggest mass killer in the history of the world.

        July 3, 2014 at 9:05 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Gullible,

          Maybe antiabortion would be a better description.

          July 3, 2014 at 9:33 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          RB....nope, that is ridiculous. Everybody on the planet is anti-abortion. Nobody gets up in the morning and says "oh boy, I get to have that abortion I've been wanting to have today....yippee!".

          July 3, 2014 at 9:49 pm |
        • evidencenot

          Robert, much more to the point in your case would be
          "anti-choice"

          July 7, 2014 at 3:00 pm |
      • Robert Brown

        Pro life think abortion is murder. Pro gun folks want to maintain their right to bear arms. I don't think most reasonable people are against healthcare. There is just disagreement on how it should be provided for those who are unable to buy it.

        July 3, 2014 at 9:29 pm |
        • kenmargo

          Pro life repubs think abortion is murder, yet repubs cut funding to SNAP so they can watch people starve to death.
          3,000 people died on 9/11. That's considered a national tragedy.
          10,000 people die a year from guns. You're more likely to killed by an American with a gun than a terrorist from the middle east.

          Despite that staggering (Death) figure "pro life" repubs can't pass a bill in congress. GOP = Guns Over People

          Guns and the bible are two of the most worthless things man has ever produced. One creates problems, one doesn't solve them!

          July 3, 2014 at 9:40 pm |
        • kenmargo

          I don't think most reasonable people are against healthcare. There is just disagreement on how it should be provided for those who are unable to buy it."

          Fox news won't explain it to you so I will.

          People that DO NOT have health insurance will still go to the hospital. If they can't pay the bill. Guess who pays? YOU THE TAXPAYER. AS you may know, insurance has discounts built in. The uninsured don't. The uninsured cost you even more money.

          That's why the prez expanded the medicaid to cover the people that CAN'T pay.
          For all others, through tax benefits and insurance competi'tion people buy PRIVATE INS. through the web site. NOT gov't ins.

          That's why despite the fact the repubs constantly saying they got an alternative to OBAMACARE, you see NOTHING. This is the best we can get for now. You gotta better idea? Lets hear it!

          July 3, 2014 at 10:00 pm |
      • kenmargo

        Pro lifers being phony has no bounds.

        July 3, 2014 at 9:31 pm |
      • thesamyaza

        I'm pro life and pro chioce

        I'm for abortions need more, pro gun and death penalty to anything to reduce population.

        healthcare reform would be cool lets have more of a nanny state that way the government will collapse quicker, martial law is also good for reducing population.

        we need to lose about 40% – 80% or the planet will do it for us we as the most wealthy nations need to set a good example

        i'm so pro life i'm anti human

        oh and Christians just remember the next time you spay or nuder your dog, you are not prolife

        July 3, 2014 at 11:50 pm |
      • idiotusmaximus

        Actually you are correct...they just want what the want...but they want to force everyone else to want it too....they are sick.

        July 4, 2014 at 10:12 am |
    • dandintac

      Robert, I don't believe God actually exists. I would say the God character in the Bible is evil though, because he slaughters people for no good reasons–sometimes for reasons that can only be called capricious at best

      However, abortion is NOT evil, because what you call a "baby" is actually a zygote, embryo or fetus that has not yet developed a brain so therefore has no capacity for thought or consciousness, and therefore is not yet a person.

      Almost everyone can easily see that a person who's brain is gone–like after a major stroke is dead. That which gives them a personality, a consciousness, what makes them them–is dead and gone. In the same way, a fetus that has not yet developed a brain is not yet "brain-alive" and has not yet achieved consciousness or thought–and therefore is not morally and qualitatively distinct from other living tissues.

      So termination of a pregnancy before brain development is not evil, and cannot be compared to slaughtering of millions of thinking, conscious, human beings.

      July 4, 2014 at 1:45 am |
      • Robert Brown

        D,

        I don't remember much before age 4, you reckon killing me before then would be ok?

        July 4, 2014 at 10:10 am |
        • kudlak

          Does a zygote have a functioning brain?

          July 4, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
        • observer

          Robert Brown,

          God sure believed in killing 4-year-olds when he TORTUROUSLY killed EVERY child.

          July 4, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          stop using the words torturously..you weren't there

          July 4, 2014 at 6:09 pm |
        • kudlak

          observer
          You mean, during the Exodus final plague, where God killed all the Egyptian first-born? To be fair, it doesn't say that this was limited to just Egyptian children. Even the firstborn of cattle are mentioned as being included, so the adult firstborn would have also been killed.

          This rises the question of why Pharaoh himself didn't die, as he would most likely have been the firstborn of his parents too in order to inherit the throne. Then again, The Lord was plainly playing him during this, "hardening" his heart against letting the Hebrews go, thus demonstrating that he isn't above twisting people's free will to suit his plans, right?

          July 4, 2014 at 3:05 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          Maybe it didn't happen because YOU weren't there.

          ALL drowning is torturous and not instantaneous. Please use LOGIC.

          July 4, 2014 at 6:13 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I DID use logic..go back and read my post AGAIN...in USNIG logic..for arguments sake..if such a God exists (the one you are arguing about) would he MAKE death instantaneous??? sheesh....

          July 4, 2014 at 6:40 pm |
        • dandintac

          Robert,

          It's not memory, but the capacity for thought and consciousness. I never claimed memory as the yardstick for personhood–if that were the case, we would all be toast. How is a person different from a dismembered arm or leg that is being kept alive by having fluids pumped in? Why is it so easy for us to recognize that when a person is brain-dead, they are gone, even though their heart can be kept beating? Most people do not hesitate to pull the plug–even people who are ostensibly "pro-life". Many of us have had the agony of realizing this with a loved one, perhaps after an accident or a stroke has basically killed them. Their brain is gone–we know they are not alive.

          Likewise with a fetus–they are not yet a person if they do not yet have a functioning brain. Regular brain waves become detectable around the beginning of the third trimester. This is a logical, scientifically-based place to draw the line, morally and legally.

          If your religion tells you the line is drawn at conception, then you are free to not get an abortion. However, you have no right to force others to conform to your particular religious beliefs.

          July 4, 2014 at 6:22 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          "I DID use logic..go back and read my post AGAIN...in USNIG logic..for arguments sake..if such a God exists (the one you are arguing about) would he MAKE death instantaneous??? sheesh...."

          ZERO LOGIC again from you. Even BY THE TIME your lungs fill with water, you are still desperately trying to gasp for air and struggle to get to the surface. We don't allow execution by drowning because it is considered too harsh. Even SIMULATING drowning is considered torture.

          You are really EMBARASSING yourself by throwing out all LOGIC to try to argue a point you have completely lost. Try to THINK before answering.

          Remember that your comments as a Christian reflect on the intelligence level of all Christians.

          July 5, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          NOT ifd God makes it instaneous! sorryt..Im still using logic..youre not...you are missing some key pieces and leaving them out..

          July 7, 2014 at 1:59 am |
        • kermit4jc

          and IMnot embarrassing yourself..YOUR opinion of me don't count anyways..MY worth is NOT based on your ignoreance..MY intelligence is nOT based on YOUR ignorance (THANK God) say what you want..if you wanna say I don't seem intelligent and others say same thing..SO WHAT? you don't dictate my intelligence...

          July 7, 2014 at 2:00 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          You are making a complete FOOL of yourself. THINK before answering.

          Filling lungs with water NEVER causes instantaneous death. It's not the water, but the resultant LACK of OXYGEN that kills the person. The brain is STILL FUNCTIONING perfectly at this point.

          IT IS TORTURE.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:09 am |
        • kermit4jc

          MMY God youre so dense..GOD can MAKE it instantaneous! WHY do yo keep ignoring that SIMPLE thing? IM not the one getting embarrassed here..its you , since you keep leaving out an important factor in MY sense of logic from MY POV....try to walk in another mans moccasins

          July 7, 2014 at 2:33 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          lol. You are the one who INSISTS that all the Bibles are wrong and should have translated the Hebrew word into "NOT forever" instead of "FOREVER".

          Since ALL the Bibles are wrong, is there ANY correct one? You know one that has the correct KERMIT translation?

          July 7, 2014 at 2:46 am |
        • kermit4jc

          LISTEN..if I IMPLIED they were wrong..then I am NOT saying it right ok>? the ARGUMENT from ME is the USEAGE of the word..ADDRESS that ok> STOP talking about the tranlstors ok? just address the USEAGE of the word forever

          July 7, 2014 at 2:50 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          The water rose for FORTY DAYS. People saw it rising. They must have tried to get to higher ground. Then the water came up around their necks and they KNEW they were going to die. Then in got in their lungs and they fought to spit it out and desperately gasped for air, fighting the horror of the death they knew was coming.

          DROWNING is TORTURE except in the FANTASYLAND you live in.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:49 am |
        • kermit4jc

          we e just gonna have to agree to disagree..I SEEN your point..you STILL failed to see mine...until then this is useless....lets move on

          July 7, 2014 at 2:51 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          "STOP talking about the tranlstors ok?"

          lol. You KEEP asking about my experience translating. Good one.

          If God says in the Bible that something is FOREVER, it should mean what it says. If God DIDN'T say that, then the Bibles are OBVIOUSLY WRONG. So which Bible is CORRECT? Is there ANY of them?

          July 7, 2014 at 2:56 am |
        • kermit4jc

          MY God READ my posts will ya?? try to use CONTEXT..when I say tranlsting..another language and all, I am USING that in the CONTEXTY of USING the word in certain way..HOW frigging hard is that for you to understand??? HUH?

          July 7, 2014 at 3:10 am |
        • kermit4jc

          If God says in the Bible that something is FOREVER, it should mean what it says. If God DIDN’T say that, then the Bibles are OBVIOUSLY WRONG. So which Bible is CORRECT? Is there ANY of them?<–so OBZVSIOUSLY...you donrt believe in EVER using figurew of speech? you don't like poetry..yo unever use the term "sun rise and sunset (in fact Ill bet you LOATH any meteorologist who uses the term) I guess YOU yourself Never said "Man this is going to take FOREVER" poor you...I pity you...

          July 7, 2014 at 3:12 am |
        • thesamyaza

          The vampire of blackness
          Does a zygote have a functioning brain?

          not to be a douche but a plant does not have a brain yet its alive.

          July 7, 2014 at 4:43 am |
        • thesamyaza

          kermit

          using a figure of speech in a law makes the law vague, this allows for interpretation, please stop interpreting the bible to suit your own Ideals, unless you wish to admit your a heretic.

          no matter how you slice it a christian has no right to preach about the sanctity of life

          Christians are some of the greatest group of murderers of our time. their hypocrites to the core. if you wish to push a pro life agenda start buy stop eating Plaints and Animal. even fruit because who clearly think the unborn are the same as the born. if you cant do that ho about stop following a faith that calls for death of every one. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are cult of death. they though away their one and only sacred life for an eternity after death, if you don't like this world kill your self we can get buy better without your nonsense.

          July 7, 2014 at 4:59 am |
        • kermit4jc

          first of all...post the verse YOu are referring to please

          July 7, 2014 at 5:03 am |
        • kermit4jc

          ATHEISTS are also worse...killing over 100 million in the last century ALONE!

          July 7, 2014 at 5:04 am |
        • kermit4jc

          BTW not a hypocrite for wanting to save lives...just because others are for death doesn't make me one too

          July 7, 2014 at 5:05 am |
        • kermit4jc

          sad you compare animals and plants to human...again showing your true colors of what makes a human have worth and dignity

          July 7, 2014 at 5:06 am |
        • thesamyaza

          froggy i don't consider my self "uman" and yes i compare plaint and animals to "umans.” im pro life all life is equal I do not see the difrence between “umans” plaints, and Animals. I do however see that “umans” over populated and are creating a crises for the ecosystem and endangering all life . Any thing to help shorten the heard. Its time to become more like rabbits, a specie who can self abort the children as well as ritualisticily slaughter they own; to prevent any harm to their ecosystem that they and their future generations really on

          and about the verses
          the entire book of Deuteronomy is my first Peace of evidence
          Romans 1:24-32 so the new testament is not left out

          They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

          A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

          From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

          "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

          Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

          i can go all day alias, i will say this read the bible.

          "ATHEISTS are also worse...killing over 100 million in the last century ALONE!"

          i am unfamiliar with the instance, but before you run your mouth let me just say

          Stalin thought himself a god/ he was not an atheist
          Hitler/ wanted to restore the holy roman empire a sit as its Father/ not an atheist (he was Christian)
          Mao was a Stalinist, also we followed the divine spirits of his ancestors/ not an atheist

          July 7, 2014 at 5:36 am |
      • idiotusmaximus

        Robert, I don't believe God actually exists...............

        You don't have to actually....there is no such thing as all of the gods throughout human history.

        July 4, 2014 at 10:13 am |
  8. kenmargo

    We need to vote democrat to control both houses of congress. Democrats can then have birth control under medicaid. Women then can apply for medicaid and get the birth control for free.

    Democrats should also repeal the HYDE amendment which prevents gov't funding for abortion.

    Fix any issues under the ACA to keep the supremes grubby little hands off it.

    July 3, 2014 at 4:02 pm |
    • Reality

      Get for "free"? You might want to review the meaning of insurance premiums.

      July 3, 2014 at 4:25 pm |
      • kenmargo

        Medicaid is a gov't run program. There's no insurance premium.

        July 3, 2014 at 5:17 pm |
        • Reality

          "Need Health Insurance? (from Medicaid.gov)

          Eligibility for Medicaid and CHIP

          You and your family may qualify for free or low-cost health insurance coverage through Medicaid or the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP). Learn more and find information about your individual options available and how to apply:"

          July 4, 2014 at 12:20 am |
    • Reality

      "Fix any issues under the ACA to keep the supremes grubby little hands off it." Yes, like the issue of men not being covered under the ACA for "free" condoms and "free" vasectomies.

      July 3, 2014 at 4:27 pm |
      • kenmargo

        I think it would be great if men could get vasectomies at no additional cost. That's cheaper than children. Birth control shouldn't be left up to women only. No worries of abortion if the man is shooting blanks.

        July 3, 2014 at 5:20 pm |
        • kudlak

          Too bad that the media still makes a big deal out of it, though. To watch the Night Shift episode about it a few weeks back you'd think that it was like open-heart surgery. Mine was less hassle than giving blood. It's really no contest between that and getting a woman's tubes tied.

          July 3, 2014 at 8:17 pm |
        • kenmargo

          Since vasectomies occur "outside" the body on the scro'tum it's really easier for guys then gals. If I had a son I would recommend he'd have the procedure done so it's reversible for when he's ready for children.

          July 3, 2014 at 8:57 pm |
        • Reality

          Vasectomies are not free even if they were covered under the ACA. Someone must pay. Either the tax payers and/or the insurance companies via your insurance premiums.

          July 4, 2014 at 12:30 am |
        • Reality

          But he can still "shoot" STDs.

          July 4, 2014 at 12:31 am |
        • dandintac

          ken, I wish far more birth control options were available for men. I wonder how come "the pill" for men has not been invented? There are BC options galore for women. For men, condoms, vasectomies, or abstinence.

          I am firmly in the "pro-choice" camp, and I do not believe any woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, or for that matter forced to abort. But on the other hand, I don't think it's fair that the fathers don't get a choice. Women have a choice–that's great and that's the way it has to be, but once the woman is pregnant, he has to live with whatever her choice is. I've known of young men who didn't want a baby, and were lied to by women who DID want a child and someone to help support it. This problem would be greatly mitigated if men had a pill or something they could take.

          July 4, 2014 at 1:54 am |
        • Reality

          dandintac,

          Add masturbation to the birth control methods for both men and women.

          July 4, 2014 at 8:09 am |
  9. kermit4jc

    “Franenstein”? Hmmmm.<-probably an aunt of Frankenstein from Austria or something 😛

    July 3, 2014 at 2:19 pm |
    • ragansteve1

      Kermit, My apologies for my earlier comment. I had been engaged in that discussion and saw your last comment without re-reading the whole discussion. My error and confusion.

      Blessings be upon you.

      July 4, 2014 at 4:43 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      How cute...kermi has a friend who is just as gullible and foolish as he is. This one thinks he needs a god in his life also...such weak minded fools, unable to live without imaginary friends.

      July 4, 2014 at 6:18 am |
      • kermit4jc

        I find it arrogant that people think they can get along just fine without help...we are humans..we all need hjeelp from time to time...asking for help s nOT weak mindedness

        July 4, 2014 at 7:00 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Help from actual living beings is one thing; help from beings that can't be shown to exist is another. I never said I don't require help in this world but the help I require isn't from a god that can't be shown to exist.
          There's no arrogance involved n admitting to being willing to give credit where credit is due. What is arrogant is when you credit this unproven deity for things that MAN has done.

          July 4, 2014 at 7:19 am |
        • kermit4jc

          BUT you call us WEAK minded fo hving to call upon another..make up your mnind..are we weakl minded and why? or are we jusy arrogant....btw God has been proven..just cause Yo ucant see it doesn't mean anything..

          July 4, 2014 at 5:44 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          No Kermit....god has not been proven. Had he been proven, we would all be believers. There is no proof whatsoever of your god. None. You saying there is proof does not mean that there is. You actually have to present the proof and have it verified. You have not done that.

          July 6, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Pretty hypocritcal argument..THINK about it...I can turn that RIGHT around and say "If evolution haes been proven then we ALL accept it as true" DO ALL of us say it is real? you know the answrr..I don't say it is real..so then..I guess by YOUR argument, evolution has never really been proven..cause not everyone say it is real....come on..get real....the fact is..not every acceptes things that are facts...thus ifthe "If God has been proven wed all be believers" argument destroys itself

          July 7, 2014 at 2:07 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          If God had been proven, you'd show us the PROOF.

          July 4, 2014 at 5:50 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Look at the Creaiton...you think this all came about maigically with no help from some intervention o intelligent force? Sorry dude...but I can only show so much..God shows even better..thats where I got MY proof from..i asked no man to prove God to me..in MY logical mind..if such a God existed..then HE can prove himself to me! ANd GHe did..thus why I know God...and thus why NO man will ever disprove God o me..no matter how arrogant and puffed up he may make himself

          July 4, 2014 at 6:38 pm |
        • Fallacy Spotting 101

          Post by 'kermit4jc' presents a form of the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy.

          http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

          July 4, 2014 at 7:45 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Not rom ignorance at all...how can that be? I know god..I don't argue out of ignorance of God

          July 7, 2014 at 1:46 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          "in MY logical mind.."

          Yep. That's the "logical mind" that says MILLIONS of gays aren't telling the truth about always being gay.
          It's the "logical mind" that says that all the biblical scholars wrongly translated "NOT forever" as "forever".
          It's the "logical mind" that says that TWO MILLION women had abortions just because it was "convenient".

          Yep.

          July 4, 2014 at 7:52 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          It I Slogical because YOU apparneltyy don't know ANYTHING about translating from one language to another..TELL me..have Yo uever taken a lesson in a differnent language? also..habe You eve rreadpoetry or such? thing is..its also a FIGURE of speech..a hyperbole..apparently to you it isn't logical cause you don't know much of communication...and other languages as for the women..again it is what THEY themselves say..it sint my opnion ok? it IS logical...they are selfish creatures

          July 7, 2014 at 1:49 am |
        • cskoog2014

          You're right Kermit, admitting that one needs help is not necessarily a sign of weakness; but claiming that the existence of god is factual is a sign of both weakness and arrogance. I believe in God myself, but in the absence of empirical evidence I am also prepared to admit that I very well could be wrong! This is why I have no use for organized religions. Not only are they inherently hypocritical but they are arrogant to the point of outrageousness in their attempt to shove a belief down the throats of other people in the absence of credible evidence. Belief does not necessarily equal truth, when are you Christians ever going to have the applied force of character to admit that? Face it – the Atheists could be right.

          July 4, 2014 at 10:24 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          ahh so yo ubase everything in life on empirical data and nothingmore? ever taken a philosophy class? I don't find it arrogant to know God personally..I have evidence..I have experienced His presence..we speak on almost daily basis...I see HIS work in the Creaitons I seen HIS work in peoples lives....so what makes that arrogant? I have knowledge of God..in fact even the BIble speaks of having knowledge of God

          July 7, 2014 at 1:52 am |
        • idiotusmaximus

          .I have experienced His presence..we speak on almost daily basis...

          You speak?????? You're scary!!!!!!!!

          July 7, 2014 at 7:39 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Oh..and I don't shove my religion down other's throats..or my knowledge of God down others throats

          July 7, 2014 at 1:53 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Weak, arrogant...tend to go hand in hand when it comes to Christianity. It's weak because it is not backed with sufficient evidence and yet you seem to think that you have it all figured out, making it arrogant.
          You say to look around at 'creation' for proof of god, yet that is a tired old argument that most Creationists throw out there and still proves nothing. You claim to have personal experience but yet again, personal is just that...it has no pertinence to anyone except you-you are the only one who had that experience and it would be different (even if slightly similar) than another persons.
          The more honest answer is "I don't know." That only leads to further searching.
          Christianity starts out with an answer...God and then builds questions around it.
          Science is a never-ending search for answers.
          I'll take the side that leads to mystery with the hope of answering the unknown, instead of purporting to already have all the answers....life is much more interesting this way-I tried yours and it only lead to being like you, not a good thing.

          July 5, 2014 at 6:55 am |
        • kermit4jc

          rong about Christianity starting out with answer...yes..it is there..but we must see if that answer is true! Scientists do same thing...they make a theory! there uis an answer...this will happen when x happens..and they test it out.and sure enough..it happens!! sorry..but I find your answer hypocritical and demeaning to say the least..I mean instead of hacking me down...why are you not even happy for me? sheesh...people like you make me wanna go jump off a bridge or something....yo ucant handle when others are happy....

          July 7, 2014 at 1:55 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          "It I Slogical because YOU apparneltyy don't know ANYTHING about translating from one language to another.."

          lol. You are the one who CLAIMS you know more about translating the Bible than apparently ALL of the biblical scholars who worked on the translations. How many of them translated "NOT FOREVER"?

          Get serious. Maybe they can fire all the BIBLICAL SCHOLARS next time and just use a BLOGGER like you.

          July 7, 2014 at 1:53 am |
        • kermit4jc

          OMG you are so stupid strill..they will still use the word "forever": YOUR problem is in the USEAGE of the word..again yo ushow NO knowledge of having studied another language from ANOTHE culture....LISTEN..If I were in a store and I said "MAN this is going to take Forever!" you think Im being literal???? do you think IM being stupid and not know how to use the word "forever?"

          July 7, 2014 at 2:29 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          Speaking of being STUPID, you obviously don't know the difference between something being LITERAL versus FIGURATIVE.

          You have insisted that you are so SMART that you know the Bible SHOULD HAVE SAID "for a FIXED TIME", but apparently ALL of the biblical scholars got it WRONG and said "FOREVER".

          Calm down and USE YOUR BRAIN.

          Apparently, when you say God has existed FOREVER, you just mean for a fixed time which could be over already.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:36 am |
        • kermit4jc

          YOU STILL are nOT addressing the issue of USGEAGE of the word..IS it being literal or nOT? and address my quesiotn if I was being literal or not....when I used forever

          July 7, 2014 at 2:38 am |
        • kermit4jc

          the context of God being forever is NOT figurative...firt of all....God created time and space according to the Bible..he is oUTSIDE of it...

          July 7, 2014 at 2:38 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          "rong about Christianity starting out with answer…yes..it is there..but we must see if that answer is true! Scientists do same thing…they make a theory! there uis an answer"

          No, Scientists start out with questions and a hypothesis and work to find answers. The Scientific Method explains this.
          I am not wrong about Christianity. It starts with GOD as an answer and everything is made to match that answer.

          "this will happen when x happens..and they test it out.and sure enough..it happens!!"

          Not always but your answer will always be god.

          " sorry..but I find your answer hypocritical and demeaning to say the least..I mean instead of hacking me down…why are you not even happy for me? sheesh…people like you make me wanna go jump off a bridge or something….yo ucant handle when others are happy…. "

          Oh my you poor persecuted baby. It is not an attack on you but on the belief system. Your happiness is not my business, the stories you spread about this god and how you use those stories to affect other peoples lives especially when it comes to rights is EVERYONE's business.
          Saying you want to jump of a bridge is not the sign of a healthy mind....seek help and feel better soon...people having suicidal thoughts are in need of medication...good luck in your recovery from the mental illness.

          July 7, 2014 at 4:46 am |
        • kermit4jc

          my goodness..the hypothesis is still "starting with an answer" If this happens, then this....that's us EXACTLY how it works..and you know it..youre playing semantics now...it is SAME with Christianity.I see there MANY be a God..I go look..I QIUESTION..if there is..then there is....sorry you cannot accept it..you don't want to accept it

          July 7, 2014 at 4:50 am |
        • kermit4jc

          MY GOD you are so lame! the jumping off a bridge thing was SARCASM to your worthless diatribe...you cant tell when one is sarcastic eh?

          July 7, 2014 at 4:52 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          kermi: Wow, are you ignorant!! A hypothesis is not an answer, it is a question that has answers found upon asking it.
          Stop the childish name calling...it makes you look extremely undereducated and horribly hateful.
          If there is a hell, I'm sure your imaginary friends imaginary nemesis has a special place reserved especially for you given how poorly you treat people and if you seriously believe people as miserable and hateful as you are going to this imaginary place called heaven, not many intelligent people would wish to be around such a hateful, bigoted, uneducated person like you.
          I am guessing you don't think you need to follow the Golden Rule....you're just so Special (needs that is).
          Suicide threats/statements should never be taken as sarcasm and it is infantile and attention seeking on your behalf to pass it off as such...seek mental health help, you need it.

          July 7, 2014 at 5:23 am |
        • kermit4jc

          I di dnOT say it WAS an aqnswer! I said it is STIILL same thing as for with God! yo uare doing hypocricy here..double talk

          July 7, 2014 at 9:36 am |
  10. Blessed are the Cheesemakers

    Looks like threads are disappearing again...

    July 3, 2014 at 2:14 pm |
    • ausphor

      July 4 long weekend even Theo Phileo found something to do besides pontificate.

      July 3, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
  11. bostontola

    A little dark, but funny and on point.

    July 3, 2014 at 1:53 pm |
  12. austin929

    I think they should have a discussion on "battle" referring to war and then relate it to bible verses.

    Is it acceptable for a Christian to defect out of the New Testament covenant of forgiveness, and become an American who condones and supports war?

    Romans 12:20 ►

    On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."

    Aren't we waiting for the return of Christ, to avenge the evil in the world? Or should we start the battle against evil in an all out world war?

    July 3, 2014 at 12:27 pm |
    • Science Works

      Come on Austin you from one of these states ? And that devil in the bedroom is completely NUTS austin.

      5 states trying to make their kids scientifically illiterate
      Louisiana, Missouri and others are shamelessly pushing a creationist agenda to appease the Christian right
      DAN AREL, ALTERNET

      http://www.salon.com/2014/07/02/5_states_trying_to_make_their_kids_scientifically_illiterate_partner/

      The religious right’s #1 obsession: Policing women’s se-x lives by any means necessary

      http://www.salon.com/2014/07/03/the_religious_rights_1_obsession_policing_womens_se-x_lives_by_any_means_necessary_partner/

      July 3, 2014 at 12:41 pm |
      • Science Works

        Oops should of asked fred – Theo- topher Vic and kermit oh dala too ?

        July 3, 2014 at 1:06 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "Or should we start the battle against evil in an all out world war?"

      And what do you think?

      July 3, 2014 at 12:42 pm |
    • Science Works

      Hey austin

      The equation below works eh ?

      U-Pb – Isotopes .

      July 3, 2014 at 1:15 pm |
    • kudlak

      austin929
      Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't a lot of Christians imagine Jesus leading a slaughter of a sizeable portion of the world's population, ending democratic rule everywhere, and basically conquering the earth when he returns? Seems a bit out of character for him, eh? More something that some evil, alien warlord might do in a comic book, or some human despot 100X worse than Hitler, wouldn't you say?

      July 3, 2014 at 8:03 pm |
  13. G to the T

    For Kermit and Theo:

    Tearing of the curtain:

    1st account: Matthew "50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. 51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom."
    2nd account: Mark – says about the same thing, Jesus dies and the curtain rips immediately afterwards.
    3rd account Luke – "44 It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45while the sun’s light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last."

    In Luke – the curtain rips BEFORE he dies. And there's a very good reasonfor the difference – the destruction of the curtain was symbolic to them in different ways. For Mark/Matt – it was a symbol that god was no longer separated from humans by the requirements of temple sacrifice. For Luke – it was evidence that Jesus was innocent of the charges against him – a righteous martyr, vindicated by god.

    July 3, 2014 at 11:50 am |
    • austin929

      and the other that says "and behold" does not say when it was torn, rather that it was just torn.

      July 3, 2014 at 7:32 pm |
  14. lunchbreaker

    Yesterday in regards to Implanon:

    kenmargo

    You mentioned removal is complicated. Would you recommend it to a young woman in her 20's if she planned on having children in her 30's?

    July 2, 2014 at 5:46 pm

    Because the implant is under the skin for 3 years, it may have to be cut out. But we are talking like barely a quarter inch incision with local aneasthetic.

    If removed before the 3 years the effectiveness is removed with it. Also after the 3 years it's effectiveness wears off. I would definietly recomend it to a young woman in her 20's who wanted children later.

    I also wonder why it is not more widely advertised, my wife and I love it. The best part is the low upkeep. No fumbling for a condom in the heat of the moment, No daily pill you have to remember (or forget) to take, the shots have to be done every 3 months, which is really not that bad, but usually have weight gain.

    July 3, 2014 at 9:31 am |
    • kenmargo

      Thanks for the info. With the supremes taking a shot at birth control with an eye towards roe v. wade. Women need to take charge, step up and let repubs know what's going on isn't right.

      July 3, 2014 at 3:56 pm |
      • Reality

        It is not complicated. Men and women simply need to practice safe s-ex.

        July 3, 2014 at 4:30 pm |
        • kenmargo

          The prez tried to help people have safe s3x and prevent abortions by making different birth control available. Supremes knocked it down. You're arguing with the wrong people by blogging.

          July 3, 2014 at 5:26 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Reality....yeah....all 16 year olds need to do is be responsible, because every 16 year old I know is just the most responsible person ever.

          July 3, 2014 at 8:09 pm |
        • Reality

          If you have a teenager, have them peruse the Brutal Effects of Stupidity as a primer for that all important se-x talk.

          July 4, 2014 at 8:14 am |
  15. Vic

    ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰

    Amen

    July 3, 2014 at 7:37 am |
    • Reality

      Only in your brainwashed mind.

      Some 21st century reality:

      “John Hick, a noted British philosopher of religion, estimates that 95 percent of the people of the world owe their religious affiliation to an accident (the randomness) of birth. The faith of the vast majority of believers depends upon where they were born and when. Those born in Saudi Arabia will almost certainly be Moslems, and those born and raised in India will for the most part be Hindus. Nevertheless, the religion of millions of people can sometimes change abruptly in the face of major political and social upheavals. In the middle of the sixth century ce, virtually all the people of the Near East and Northern Africa, including Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt were Christian. By the end of the following century, the people in these lands were largely Moslem, as a result of the militant spread of Islam.

      The Situation Today
      Barring military conquest, conversion to a faith other than that of one’s birth is rare. Some Jews, Moslems, and Hindus do convert to Christianity, but not often. Similarly, it is not common for Christians to become Moslems or Jews. Most people are satisfied that their own faith is the true one or at least good enough to satisfy their religious and emotional needs. Had St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas been born in Mecca at the start of the present century, the chances are that they would not have been Christians but loyal followers of the prophet Mohammed. “ J. Somerville

      It is very disturbing that religious narrow- mindedness, intolerance, violence and hatred continues unabated due to randomness of birth. Maybe, just maybe if this fact would be published on the first page of every newspaper every day, that we would finally realize the significant stupidity of all religions.

      July 3, 2014 at 7:46 am |
    • tallulah131

      Jack is Lord.

      July 3, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        Calvert is Lord

        July 3, 2014 at 2:36 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Pomeroy is Lord

          July 3, 2014 at 2:38 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          Pommery presumably?

          Bollinger perhaps?

          Or the pantheon of Moet and Chandon?

          Bolli Stoli darling?" – Edwina Monsoon.

          July 3, 2014 at 5:18 pm |
        • kudlak

          Actually, only the New Zealand singer Lorde is Lorde. (smily)

          July 3, 2014 at 8:06 pm |
        • evidencenot

          John is Lord

          July 7, 2014 at 3:37 pm |
      • truthfollower01

        You all do have a god(s) of your life whether it be money, se-x, worldly knowledge, a hobby, a spouse, a friend, etc.

        What is it that controls your thoughts?

        July 3, 2014 at 7:50 pm |
        • kudlak

          Except that I wouldn't talk to my money in hopes that it will answer me, because talking to anything other than a real person would just be silly, right?

          July 3, 2014 at 8:09 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          you don't need to ttalk to money to make it your god...you depend so much on money as to make it your god...

          July 4, 2014 at 2:41 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          TF.....why exactly does something have to control your thoughts? I know for sure that I have absolutely no need nor desire for any god, and in particular, your p-rick of a god. Prove for a fact that of the thousand of gods available for choice, that yours is the best and only one. Wait....first, prove that any god exists. Good luck.

          July 3, 2014 at 8:19 pm |
        • idiotusmaximus

          Only idiots think there are lots of gods.....I'm the only god I know of.

          July 3, 2014 at 8:21 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          My wife says I'm a god in bed.....does that count?

          July 3, 2014 at 8:24 pm |
        • idiotusmaximus

          If anyone says you're a god in bed it's extra true....

          July 4, 2014 at 10:15 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          That is a canard.

          July 3, 2014 at 8:22 pm |
        • tallulah131

          No. I don't have a god. Stop lying.

          I control my own thoughts. They tend to reflect what I am called upon to do at any given moment. It's amazing how focus improves your ability to perform tasks. I truly hope that you are controlling your own thoughts when you are pursuing activities such as driving a car. I would hate for you to run down several innocent pedestrians because you were letting your "god" control your thoughts.

          July 4, 2014 at 3:00 am |
        • kermit4jc

          I don't think that is what he has meant...in "controlling your thoughts" like do you constantly think about money..how to get it? is money the thing you think about all the time? etc etc....does money control you? can you do without it or do you get desperate if you don't have it? (yes, I know we need money to live on..but how much does it occupy your life, your mind)

          July 4, 2014 at 3:12 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Now you're applying the label god to anything. Kudos for proving gods are invention of man. Now could you please attempt to follow a 'god' that isn't portrayed as a vindictive ass by the book written about it?

          July 4, 2014 at 3:40 am |
        • idiotusmaximus

          .first, prove that any god exists. .........

          People that believe in gods don't believe in the truth of proof since gods can only exist in the arbitrary mind....proof means nothing to these people.

          July 4, 2014 at 10:18 am |
        • kermit4jc

          that's a limited and ignorant statement...God can be proven.by His works....His Creation....all you see and don't see (in the universe) simply didn't "just happen" otherwise youd have a lot more faith then we do to believe that nonsense (something from nothing-universe created itself into existence

          July 4, 2014 at 5:47 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          No, I depend upon oxygen, food and water, but I generally don't spend very much time actually thinking about them. I have, however, gone weeks without ever even looking at money. I'm guessing that you imagine me to be some kind of stereotypical materialistic atheist. I've never met any of those. Anyway, chances are that I use money just as much as you do. So, does that make you polytheistic?

          July 4, 2014 at 1:26 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I used money as an example..didn't say that is YOUR god....its whatever you spoend your time on most and depend on most...that becomes your god..it is what you SERVE the most

          July 4, 2014 at 6:05 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          You mean capital "C" capitalists, the people who run whole companies and earn all the profits for themselves. Probably like the fine folks at Hobby Lobby than a simple consumer such as myself, right? Ask yourself, will the owners of Hobby Lobby simply sell their company if they ever have to comply with providing these forms of birth control?

          July 4, 2014 at 1:53 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Ask yourself, will the owners of Hobby Lobby simply sell their company if they ever have to comply with providing these forms of birth control?<-I don't see it as for the money as it is that they are forced against their beliefs! thus if they HAD to sell, it be because they wree not allowed their own moral conscious...that's the issue....they have freedoms too...yet its being chipped away..or they were

          July 4, 2014 at 6:09 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          It is against the BELIEFS of probably all atheists (and many non-believers) on here to PAY THE TAXES that your church doesn't.

          Why should we?

          July 4, 2014 at 6:11 pm |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          So, let's get this straight. Hobby Lobby can discriminate because it's religiously-grounded discrimination, but all other forms of discrimination shouldn't be allowed, is that right? So, what's to stop these fine folks from reestablishing racial and gender bias as well, both of which were once regarded as biblically-grounded?

          July 5, 2014 at 12:06 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          your argument is weak..first of all..JUST because people USED the Bible to support racial and gender discrimination does nOT mean the BIBLE ITSELf supported it...racial and gender discrimination is nOT supported by the Bible...

          July 7, 2014 at 1:58 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....yes, discrimination is rampant throughout the bible, particularly to women.

          July 7, 2014 at 11:04 am |
        • kermit4jc

          Oh yeah..i agree to a point..but its nOT supported by the Bible...some of the men looked down upon the women..but God never did..IN the very beginning BOTH man and woman were made in HIS image....thus they are equal..BOTH get equal salvation....thus no discrimination...oops! .Im sorry..what did you say????

          July 8, 2014 at 2:15 am |
        • kudlak

          kermit4jc
          "its whatever you spoend your time on most and depend on most...that becomes your god..it is what you SERVE the most"

          You mean, like a favourite hobby? Well, I'm watching the World Cup matches just now, but I don't hesitate in turning the TV off when it's mealtime and I don't feel guilty for missing any games when I do.

          Just because you SERVE some religious organization, or even just the idea of some deity, doesn't mean that everyone has something similar in their lives leeching away much of their time and resources. I'm a lot more rounded than that.

          Besides, you're deliberately diluting the definition of what a god actually is, especially when compared with how the typical Christian views their God. God isn't just some something that you're obsessed with, right?

          July 5, 2014 at 12:21 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          for ME...God is my God..I have a personal relationship with Him...I worship Him..He is one I speak to first in the mornings..and last I speak to in the evenings before going to bed....I speak with him at all hours of the day..i soend time with Him and I serve Him..as for your argument..when I say tspending time...it ALSo is included with serving....you are separating those two

          July 7, 2014 at 2:02 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          Of course GENDER discrimination is supported by the bible.

          Haven't you ever read ANYTHING by St. Paul?

          lol. You are a RIOT.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:05 am |
        • kermit4jc

          Yes..i read Paul iN CONTEXT..I think YO ushod read ALl of Paul..MANY times He praises the work women do in the church! It had nothing to do cause of gender only..it had to do with the culture..what they did (IN case of women not teaching- Paul references to those who were from culture of where WOMAN dominated men!) NO ONE should dominate over another! and thus also the women were spreading false teachings in Ephesus! (How do I know? READ the book of Ephesuans -what did that have to do with Timothy, from which Pauls writing is abou women teaching? Timothy was a young pastor at a church in Ephesus!) thus You TOTALLY ignore the context

          July 7, 2014 at 2:32 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          lol. So Paul said that ONLY in cultures where women DOMINATED men, should they not be allowed to speak in church and have to ask their husbands.

          Great thinking.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:40 am |
        • kermit4jc

          uh..having to ask their husbands at home is something else...fond in Corinthians...apparnelty you don tknow much of church at that time..its noT like todays church...women sat on onbe side men on the oher....think about it..when someone is teaching..and people keep talking across the aisles , asking questions, it will disrupt the service! Paul ALWAYS spoke of ORDERLY worship services...you got LOTS to learn sir

          July 7, 2014 at 2:47 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          Paul was the genius who said men should not have s3x with women, but they had to allow marriage because of their INABILITY to control themselves.

          Great endorsement for marriage. lol.

          July 7, 2014 at 2:43 am |
        • kermit4jc

          wrong..He wa smaking a poin t..AND he was addressing an ISsue within the church..again YOU have LOTS to learn sir..the letters ot the Corinthians were NOT cause Paul got bored and decided to write..READ the letters...He was addressing ISSUES...People in the church were saying don't marry etc etc.....

          July 7, 2014 at 2:49 am |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          you got LOTS to learn sir when it comes to logic.

          Your PITIFUL argument is that Paul didn't say anything was WRONG, although it was, but instead went along with the times to be POLITICALLY CORRECT rather than spread God's PERFECT word.

          I love the EXCUSE using the "times back then" as if God had to wait for the times to change to tell them they were WRONG. What a riot!

          July 7, 2014 at 2:53 am |
        • kermit4jc

          right..YOU refuse to use context, instead you make up crap about what Paul says.Youre the one who needs to learn about logic and using context when using communication...prove me wrong..show me the context from the bIble that I am wrong

          July 7, 2014 at 3:09 am |
        • evidencenot

          @kermi "Yes..i read Paul iN CONTEXT"

          In other words I have interpreted it to mean what I want it to say.....

          mean while;

          1 Corinthians 14:34-36 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church

          1 Timothy 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.

          July 7, 2014 at 3:42 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          so tell me..what do yo uknow of church services in the church at Corinth? what do you know of how they conducted them? and then tell me what you know about Timothy and the city of Ephesus..the religious climate there? wanna fill me in on the context? hmmm?

          July 8, 2014 at 2:25 am |
    • thesamyaza

      so you worship Jesus and Amen Ra

      July 3, 2014 at 4:46 pm |
      • tallulah131

        It's funny. Amen Ra is pig latin for Ramen....

        July 4, 2014 at 4:18 pm |
  16. truthfollower01

    Good night all.

    July 2, 2014 at 11:58 pm |
  17. truthfollower01

    I was making a generalized claim concerning the child's brain activity. Why support abortion if there's a chance that the brain activity of the child will come? Would you want to terminate the life of the patient with the head injury if there was a chance that in a short period of time, the brain activity could return?

    July 2, 2014 at 11:51 pm |
    • truthfollower01

      Sorry. Should have said: I was making a generalized claim concerning children in the womb's brain activity.

      July 3, 2014 at 12:26 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "Would you want to terminate the life of the patient with the head injury if there was a chance that in a short period of time, the brain activity could return?"

      Yes, if the patient was essentually a parasite and the host did not want it. Why is that a problem?

      July 3, 2014 at 12:44 am |
    • seyouell

      Akira, you're wrong. Here's JUST ONE CASE:

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/10/dead-patient-wakes-up-remove-organs_n_3573215.html

      July 3, 2014 at 4:54 am |
      • thesamyaza

        did you not watch the video,.. malpractice is not coming back to life

        July 3, 2014 at 5:08 am |
      • kermit4jc

        There have been cases where it has happened...and just because YOU don't know of any doesn't mean it never happened..again HOW does Jesus fake his own death and resurrection??

        July 3, 2014 at 9:52 am |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        How does King Arthur fake pulling the sword out of the stone?

        July 3, 2014 at 10:40 am |
      • G to the T

        " HOW does Jesus fake his own death and resurrection?"

        No one said his death was fake, only that the resurrection claim lacks evidence and is an extremely impropable event.

        July 3, 2014 at 10:52 am |
        • kermit4jc

          lacks evidence? how so? you got eyewitness accounts...eyewitnesses seeing and talking and eating and touching Jesus! WHy are there NI reports from that time to dispute the claims????

          July 3, 2014 at 12:09 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          The evidence came only from believers that wanted it to be so, not an independent review panel. I know of people that swear they saw a flying saucer. They were not right either.

          July 3, 2014 at 12:23 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          LOL>..silly theory...notnhing in the BIble shows they WANTEd it..they didn't think it would happen!

          July 3, 2014 at 12:43 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Nope...not in the bible, but common sense. You should try it sometime. You follow a guy around for three years, and he tells you he will return after death, you might be biased in your opinion whether he did or not.

          July 3, 2014 at 12:48 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          not according the evidence in the Bible...they did not understand he would come back..common sense also needs to use evidence...not ignore it..how can they want something they didn't think would happen in the first place? and if it is as YOusay...why ddnt they retrieve the body to show them Jesus is still dead? youmay say he was "dumped " in a common grave..but historial facts show the church grew IMEDIATELY after Jesus...not enogh time to rot or such....he was putin a tomb anyways

          July 3, 2014 at 1:25 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          All heresay. And, you can not use common sense with any part of the bible. In order to believe the bible, you must free yourself from logic and reason. If you truly want to believe that a 600 year old man built a floating zoo, a snake talked, a woman got turned into salt, the Red Sea parted, or a man rose from the dead after 3 days, then you must suspend common sense and scientific logic. Or....be nuts.

          July 3, 2014 at 1:35 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          OR believe that a God caused it.....if there is a God who is greater..couldhe not do all those things and go beyondOUR LIMITED logic? our logic and reasonis FINITE....and seems to me yu ohave faith in those things totally...not everything in this world is logical and reasonable...in the field of psychology the mind at times is NOT logical and reasonable....

          July 3, 2014 at 1:45 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....there have been thousands of gods over the years...thousands. All reported to have done miraculous things. I didn't believe any of them either

          July 3, 2014 at 1:53 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          that's fine..don't then..MY point is..YOUR logic and reason..as much as anyone else's in this world is LIMITED and finite and it cannot answer for everything...but seems to me like you depend on it as though it does

          July 3, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Yes, I do. We don't have all the answers yet, but I'm confident someday we will. So I'm keeping my mind open to the possibilities. I refuse to make my answer 'some god did it' because it is convenient. That is too lazy for me.

          July 3, 2014 at 2:10 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I refuse to make my answer ‘some god did it’ because it is convenient. That is too lazy for me.<–I agree....that woukd be disonestto do so...I on the other hand do not go this way....I know God exists....therefore since He is Creator and all..I know he can do this....its purely logical conclusion

          July 3, 2014 at 2:21 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....you, like most all bible thumpers, are confusing the words 'know' and 'believe'. You believe, you may even highly suspect, but you do not know. You have no proof. None. You believe, that is all. If you have proof, by all means present it. But you can't, because there is no proof. I can respect somebody that says that they believe, but I abhor those that claim they know, for either side.

          July 3, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          not at l..IKNIOW about know andbelieve..I have Knowledge of Gods existence..I have a personal experience with God...that's knowledge..not belief...so no..I do not have them confused..yuojust cant admit that we can say we have knowledge of God, cause you don't want to admit it

          July 3, 2014 at 3:25 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....nope....no proof. You do not have any proof. You can claim all you want, but you simply have no proof. You depend on a musty 2000 year old book as your evidence, but you just don't have any real proof. You claim you have a personal relationship with god....but again, you don't know that either. You have no proof that it is not satan disguising himself as god, or that it is any of the other thousand of gods. And mostly, you have no idea if it is all in your mind, which I highly suspect. You have no more cognitive powers than I do, so again, no proof. Keep believing though if you want, but, you do not know for sure, you just believe.

          July 3, 2014 at 7:56 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          NOPE..you lie about me..I do NOT depend on that....THAT did not prove God to me....you don't speak for me ok? and don't project yourself on me either..I have personal knowledge of God.....that is something Yo ucannot take away from me....you cannot disprove...just cause You cant find proof doesn't mean I cant either....God is consistent...as I said it is a personal experience...I can tell when it is satan..in fact I had encounters with satan and it isnot nice....trying to destroy me emotionally and such.. (fotunatly those are few incidents) I have no fear of him at all....sorry..but you did not livfe MY life to know such things and say such things about MY knowledge of God

          July 4, 2014 at 2:36 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....rant all you want. You have no personal relationship with any god. You think you do....you believe you do, but you do not have any proof of any personal relationship with god. But don't take offense...many people are delusional. There are many people that claim they have been aboard alien spacecrafts, but I don't believe them either.

          July 4, 2014 at 10:38 am |
        • kermit4jc

          Kermit….rant all you want. You have no personal relationship with any god. You think you do….you believe you do, but you do not have any proof of any personal relationship with god<–I still find you an arrogant azz for trying to purpose to me what I know and don't know..yuo are not me..yo uhave not experienced my life...and who made you the king of psychology where you seem to determine Im delusional? I find it offensive that you purpose to know what I know..and tell me what I know or not know....

          July 4, 2014 at 5:56 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....I don't care what you say about me, really. From your posts, you are a bit of a kook......everybody can see that, which is why people are constantly making fun of you and telling you what an idiot you are. I don't have to be the king of psychology to read exactly what type of person you are. Dial it back a notch and people might take you a little more seriously.

          July 6, 2014 at 2:08 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          not everyone agrees with you..so just another opinion

          July 7, 2014 at 2:09 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          That's true....not everyone agrees with me. But, the ones that do are the more intelligent posters on this blog....the ones that can string together coherent and logical thoughts. It's just the religious nuts that don't agree with me.

          July 7, 2014 at 10:59 am |
        • kermit4jc

          I find that very arrogant post..to assume that since we believe in God we are less inteeligent..that is a very dishonest statement...MANY of Nobel Prize winners and MANY Phds in science say God exists..I guess they are not intelligent as well?

          July 8, 2014 at 2:13 am |
        • kermit4jc

          d I DO ow whats in my mind and whats real...I been Christian over 25 years..experiencing Gods presence and all...I don't take it blindly..I quesitned it time and again , especially in the beginning of the relationship...

          July 4, 2014 at 2:37 am |
      • kermit4jc

        thisis the LAST time I type it! I do NOT have a frigging PsychD degree ok? I NEVER said I did..and I NEVER said I was..HAPY now? Sheeesh...pay attention..or this blog isbeing sh***ty about posting my things

        July 3, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I never said I was I never pretended I was

          July 3, 2014 at 12:40 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        ."..eyewitnesses seeing and talking and eating and touching Jesus!"

        We have eye witnesses that Elvis is alive...

        We have eye witnesses that aliens have abducted people...

        We have eye witnesses that Bigfoot is stalking the Norhtwest wood and Yeti is in the Himalayas...

        AND the eyewitness accounts are all people recounting stories they heard from other people...NOT the actual eyewitnesses, which make it even less reliable. Your bar of accepting claims is quite a bit lower than mine....

        July 3, 2014 at 12:24 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          there are spome actual eyewitnesses directly relating the stories to the Gospels writers..ioncluding the authors themselves (Matthew and John)

          July 3, 2014 at 12:45 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        "WHy are there NI reports from that time to dispute the claims????"

        Better question, why are there no reports outside of the Bible of Jesus' incredible feats from the time that they happened? You would have thought someone would have noticed....what with zombies (not just Jesus) walking around and the sun going dark for hours and all that right?

        July 3, 2014 at 12:34 pm |
      • joey3467

        "WHy are there NI reports from that time to dispute the claims????"

        How about the Chruch destroyed them? They were big fans of burning books they didn't agree with back in the day.

        July 3, 2014 at 12:44 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          yeah..right...sorry..no evidence of that....no evidence thy burned up disputations...no evidence any came out

          July 3, 2014 at 1:01 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit...,there is no evidence that most of the bible is true, but that isn't stopping you from believing it.

          July 3, 2014 at 1:07 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          most of the BIble? theres archeology.come on..get with the 21st century on archeological finds

          July 3, 2014 at 1:42 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit...that's why I said most, not all. Some historical aspects are true. Just enough to keep the rabid dogs panting about the veracity of their guidebook. And, I don't listen to any nut that believes in the story of Noah trying to lecture me on science in the 21st century.

          July 3, 2014 at 1:50 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          yes..so it seems youre a naturalist....don't believein miracles..I know a God exists..and thus he can allow a 600 year old man to build an ark....without God that is impossible and I would agree with you....however, I don't limit myself to the naturalistic physical realm..I see there is more to it than that

          July 3, 2014 at 1:57 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          I'm not an anything believer. And, like I've already stated, I don't need anybody that believes a 600 year old man even existed, much less built a floating zoo, tell me anything about anything of any relevance. You have suspended all logic and reason in order to perpetuate your belief, thereby making your opinions about science or technology completely invalid

          July 3, 2014 at 2:08 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I have suspended YOUR finite and liited sense of logic....MY logic has a bit more than yours..with God allthings are possible..that is logical....(NOTE, I did not say there must be a God for a 600 year old tobuild an ark, before I believed there was one) I got to KNOW the real God and because I kNOW the real God...it is LOGICAL to ME that he can allow a 600 year oldman to build an ark..so no..Ido NOT suspend ALLlogic and reason..only YOUR limited and finite logic

          July 3, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          You can argue logic all you want, but you are still wrong. You must suspend all scientific logic in order to believe most of the nonsense in the bible. Most people know that and admit that. Your refusal to do so is typical of the bible thumper set, but I have come to expect that from people that choose a talking snake over evolutionary theory.

          July 3, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          and there is NOTHING wrong with suspending scientific logic! If there is a God he is nOT limited to the laws of nature and all....especially if he created it..its called a miracle.....and nothing wrong with believing in miracles...Jesus death and resurrection..sure THAT defies Scientific logic..so what? it does not make it false

          July 3, 2014 at 3:22 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          I never said it made it false. What I said was, it makes it difficult for an intelligent person to accept. Having never witnessed a miracle (at least anything that would not have normally happened in nature), I am just not sure how people can accept the nonsense thrown at them. But, again, I really don't care what people believe. It's just extremely disingenuous for people to say that they know anything for a fact when indeed there is no proof. It's not even a nice story to believe.

          July 3, 2014 at 7:52 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        There is no evidence Matthew and John put pen to paper kermit. Whoever WROTE those gospels down were relating stories that supposedly CAME from Matthew and John. That is what is called "hearsay" evidence.

        July 3, 2014 at 12:49 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          ANY piece of history would be hearsay then.....PLUS..historians don't work thatway anyways...if they go by your standards wed have hardly anyhistory to read from

          July 3, 2014 at 1:40 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          History is continually embellished, and I suspect you know that. Provable history is just that. Provable. I know Mt. Vesuvius erupted, killing all the residents of Pompeii, because there is trace history available. There is nothing provable about Jesus's life. Nothing but heresay. I can't and won't accept a few peoples words to change my way of life. That would be stupid. I need proof, and you have none.

          July 3, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          no evidence of hearsay....you got to prove it is hearsay first

          July 3, 2014 at 2:10 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          It's hearsay by definition. Nothing to prove there.

          July 3, 2014 at 2:13 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          prove they were not eyewitnesses

          July 3, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....I can't prove either way, which is where logic and reason come into play. You suspend all logic and reason to believe that nonsense, and I just can't do that.

          July 3, 2014 at 2:30 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        The most important book in Christian Science (aside from the Bible) is Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures.
        The last section of the book is comprised of 84 letters written by individuals who said they had been healed – simply by reading the book – of conditions such as addictions to tobacco and alcohol, asthma, a broken bone, cataract, cancer, deafness, eczema, a fibroid tumor, and rheumatism.
        Given the preponderance of first hand accounts, are we to believe the tenets of Mary Baker Eddy – that anybody can channel the magic healing powers of Jesus if they just heed her teachings?

        July 3, 2014 at 12:53 pm |
      • observer

        Akira,

        Please SETTLE this by supplying PROOF that he said what you claim.

        July 3, 2014 at 1:30 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        @Kermit
        "thisis the LAST time I type it! I do NOT have a frigging PsychD degree ok? I NEVER said I did..and I NEVER said I was..HAPY now?"

        I refer you to the following
        https://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/02/10/deaf-pastor-atheist-a-big-surprise-to-his-congregation/comment-page-5/

        "kermit4jc

        And why you say I don't know what evidence means? sounds kind of arrogant don't you think? I have Bachelors degree in psychology..I love science and biology..I KNOW what evidence means....too bad you wanna limit its meaning to say there is no God
        February 18, 2014 at 12:01 pm |

        July 3, 2014 at 1:37 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          yes..thsnks for providing that...I had said I have a psychology degree but not a doctorate as akira assumed I said or even implied...thank you...for respoting my clear statement as to who I am and what I have

          July 3, 2014 at 1:47 pm |
      • kermit4jc

        I was honest....all the time...the stupid blog probably did not post some of my things...cuuase as I saidI said 6 times that I did not have a psyd degree....if yuo didnt see it..then its Cnns fault...not mine

        July 3, 2014 at 1:42 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        "...if they go by your standards wed have hardly anyhistory to read from"

        kermit, that is garbage. What we know from history comes from cooberating and cross referencing mutiple accounts. Not just from one side but from multiple sources as well as from direct evidence (coins, statues, ect). The claims of Jesus have NONE of that. The only evidence is from the bible....the bible is the claim. What contemporary accounts can be used to verify the claims? There are none. And as I said considering the claims of the gospels (people climbing out of graves, earthquakes, the sun going dark for hours) there should be some cooberating, extra-biblical accounts of those events and of Jesus himself, if he was the major figure in the area that he is portayed to be. But what do we have...nothing and the bible is not a trusted historical source outside of people like yourself.

        July 3, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          again the BIblewas NOT One book! It contains a NUMBER of books and sources..thus they DO corroborate.....we do not need more..history does NOT always go on more...sometimes history goes on even less than what the bible offers I suggest you go learn how historians determine facts in history

          July 3, 2014 at 2:07 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....the reason that the bible is not taught in history classes is because it is not verifiable history. Only theologians believe that nonsense

          July 3, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          totally false statement....it isn't allowed cause it is are religious book..and you know it...the people out there say we cannot mix religion and classes together like that..yes,the Bible IS a history book.but to idiots out there, it is a religious book and cannot be allowed in public schools

          July 3, 2014 at 2:36 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....you are quite wrong, I'm afraid. The Crusades are taught in history classes. The rule of Caesar is taught in history classes. The entire Middle Ages, when religion ruled the modern world, is taught in history classes. Noah is not history. Talking snakes and Adam and Eve is not history. The Tower of Babel is just not history. But...there are nuts out there that are bound and determined to try to claim so. You have no proof, you just believe.

          July 3, 2014 at 2:44 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          Ceasar is part of that...but you wanna throw out the whole Bible cause of some things not deemed "historical" by the secular school system? those examples you gave do not work anyways since they are not theological in nature..teaching theology as the Bible does

          July 3, 2014 at 5:19 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit....so we agree then, the bible is theology and not history. That is what I have been saying all along.

          July 3, 2014 at 8:11 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I said it is BOTH..notone or the other..so no..we do not agree...MY point is that the SECULAR people say it is just a theology book..not history....

          July 4, 2014 at 2:42 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          Kermit...well, it is pretty obvious that the secular law can be changed to conform to the religious nuts, so again, why is the bible not taught in history classes? Could it be because nobody of any true intelligence classifies it as history?

          July 4, 2014 at 2:55 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          archeology has shown the bIbole to be trusted in many areas...and there ARE outside writings by people of Jesus...Tacitus,Pliny the younger,Jospehus (yes..they may not mention Jesus MIRACLES, but DO attest to that Jesus existed) Ive only named a few historians of that time or near that time..if youwant more I can give you more names

          July 3, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • gulliblenomore

          I believe Jesus existed. I just don't believe he was devine. There is no proof, it is just what you believe.

          July 3, 2014 at 2:15 pm |
      • neverbeenhappieratheist

        "I said 6 times that I did not have a psyd degree...."

        "I had said I have a psychology degree but not a doctorate as akira assumed I said or even implied"

        So you may have some sort of education but you don't know the difference between the words "doctorate" and "degree"?

        July 3, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          HUH???? WHAT makes you ask that????

          July 3, 2014 at 3:26 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Should the government deny a brain damaged patient's next of kin the right to determine when to pull the plug?

      July 3, 2014 at 2:51 pm |
  18. dandintac

    truthfollower argues the following:

    "Dan's reasoning concerning brain activity falls apart upon examination. The child WILL have brain activity just as the patient in my hypothetical situation will have brain activity. Why is it okay to kill the child for this and not the patient?"

    This is not true. There are spontaneous abortions all the time–we all the miscarriages. They are very common. Just because an egg has been implanted certainly does not mean that it WILL have brain activity. Certainly the potential is there, but as I've said before, the potential is there with every egg cell, every sperm cell. Every time a man eja-culates, it's a holocaust if we go by potential for life = life.

    TF–you are looking at an implanted egg with the mindset that it's a done deal. It is not. It is just one more stage in the long, unbreaking chain of life that goes back to the first reproducing cell, and these implanted cells are not that special–they miscarry as much as they lead to developing into a fetus.

    Therefore we have no special duty to make sure every one of them leads to full development. Again, the mother's freedom of choice must be allowed to prevail on a moral and legal level. This has the best scientific basis.

    If you disagree because your religion tells you otherwise, then that is a personal matter for you only, and no one is forcing you to abort a baby that you might bear. You have no scientifically based, ethical grounds to force others to do the same.

    July 2, 2014 at 11:42 pm |
    • truthfollower01

      I was making a generalized claim concerning the child’s brain activity. Why support abortion if there’s a chance that the brain activity of the child will come? Would you want to terminate the life of the patient with the head injury if there was a chance that in a short period of time, the brain activity could return?

      July 2, 2014 at 11:58 pm |
      • truthfollower01

        Sorry. Should have said: I was making a generalized claim concerning children in the womb's brain activity.

        July 3, 2014 at 12:26 am |
      • seyouell

        Wrong. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/10/dead-patient-wakes-up-remove-organs_n_3573215.html

        July 3, 2014 at 4:54 am |
      • thesamyaza

        the nurses said several time the brain was still active and she was showing sign of recovery, the doctors still went ahead with the harvest. watch the video

        July 3, 2014 at 5:11 am |
      • Alias

        Ther is a doctor by the nams of 'Franenstein' that claims to have made progress in restoring brain activity after it has been lost, but he is a froeigner and none of his publications have been peer reviewed.

        July 3, 2014 at 1:07 pm |
      • dandintac

        TF,

        If there is a brain injury, we can tell if they have a chance of recovery or not. Even people who are vigorously pro-life have no problem recognizing that a brain-dead loved one is gone. Republican Senator from Texas, Tom Delay, so famously and publicly "pro-life"–was able to see that his brain-damaged father was dead, and pulled the plug.

        Now, I know it is argued that well, the fetus WILL have a brain if we just wait! But not necessarily. There are miscarriages all the time. A fertilized egg is under no guarantee to develop, and even if they do, they do not always develop successfully. We are therefore under no special obligation to make sure that every fertlized egg develops.

        So it is fair and logical to apply the same moral standards toward a zygote/embryo/fetus that has not yet developed a brain–that we do toward a human being outside a woman's body. If they do not have a functioning brain–they are not yet or no longer a human person with the protection and rights under the law.

        July 4, 2014 at 7:59 pm |
  19. observer

    truthfollower01 ,

    If your sister/mother/daughter/etc. needed an abortion to save their life –

    would you say "tough luck" or

    DO YOU SUPPORT ABORTION?

    July 2, 2014 at 11:24 pm |
    • truthfollower01

      In the case where someone is going to die regardless of the decision that is made, I would at this time choose to save my wife.

      July 2, 2014 at 11:31 pm |
      • observer

        truthfollower01,

        Maybe now you are starting to understand what a continuum is. At least you acknowledge that you support abortion which is a start.

        July 2, 2014 at 11:35 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          This doesn't make abortion good or right, as you all seem to argue and/or think it is. It's still taking a life. However, given the hypothetical situation, someone is going to die no matter what. It's just a matter of who. Surely you can see that this is a bad situation all the way around.

          July 2, 2014 at 11:40 pm |
        • observer

          truthfollower01

          "This doesn't make abortion good or right"

          So it's not "good or right" to do something to save your wife's life. I feel sorry for her.

          July 2, 2014 at 11:48 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          I don't know why I have to explain these things to you but for the sake of the conversation, here goes. The act of abortion itself is never good or right because it kills a life. Why would the act of killing a child ever be good or right?

          July 2, 2014 at 11:56 pm |
        • observer

          truthfollower01

          If the act of abortion SAVED your wife's life and you don't find that "good or right", that is your MORALITY problem.

          "Why would the act of killing a child ever be good or right?" Ask God. He killed EVERY ONE of them.

          July 3, 2014 at 12:00 am |
      • kudlak

        truthfollower01
        Your wife could die of complications with any pregnancy/delivery. There's always an element of risk to it, right?

        July 3, 2014 at 1:53 pm |
    • kermit4jc

      really a bad question observer...for MY family..MY wife and MY mother, they are actually LOVING people and would sacrifice their lives for others! they aren't self serving egotistical people..they know and have real love and put others first....

      July 3, 2014 at 2:17 am |
      • observer

        kermit4jc,

        Not a "bad" question at all, but a thought-provoking one and hopefully and educational one.

        If your wife cares about others, you should be one of them. Sacrificing her life for a fetus means that you and the rest of your family would not have your wife anymore and if the fetus lived, it would not have a mother. If she cares about you that much, how could she do that to YOU and the rest of the people who love her? How do you tell her that you'd rather have another baby than have her around?

        July 3, 2014 at 11:01 am |
        • kermit4jc

          IT CAN have a motherif I remarry..ever thought of THAT?????

          July 3, 2014 at 12:13 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          "IT CAN have a motherif I remarry..ever thought of THAT?????

          WRONG. It can have a STEP-MOTHER if you remarry. ever thought of THAT?????

          July 3, 2014 at 12:21 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          of course! But she isgoing to TREAT them as if her ownc hild.ever thoughtof that?

          July 3, 2014 at 12:42 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc

          Not every person who marries someone with children does NOT have problems. ever thoughtof that?

          FACT: she would not be their REAL mother.

          You are a riot!

          July 3, 2014 at 12:46 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          I KNOW that...and I did nOT say there woldbe no problems..but even with their REAL (biological) mother there could be problems too..so you are trying to grasp at straws here

          July 3, 2014 at 1:02 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          FACT: she would not be their REAL mother.<-do youhave a problem with if sheisnt the real (biological) mother?

          July 3, 2014 at 1:03 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          The child likely would regret that they NEVER met their mother, but you didn't think of that. No surprise.

          July 3, 2014 at 2:12 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          OH How tragic...the humanityof it all.. regret! SO devastating a thing! life is FULL of regrets....do youhave a problem with regrets?

          July 3, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
        • observer

          kermit4jc,

          You don't seem to have any regrets. There has not been ONE INDICATION that you would have any regrets if your wife or mother died or that your kid or kids didn't have a REAL blood mother to know and learn from.

          Are all Christians as cold and heartless as you seem to be?

          July 3, 2014 at 2:30 pm |
        • hawaiiguest

          YES kermit, KEEP using certain words IN all CAPS. I'M sure that people WILL take you MORE seriously if YOU KEEP doing that, not to mention you SEEM to think it makes SOME kind of POINT.

          July 3, 2014 at 3:37 pm |
  20. dandintac

    You know what would be ironic? If some of HL's employees wound up having abortions because they weren't able to utilize the most effective means of BC for their particular body and situation.

    July 2, 2014 at 11:13 pm |
    • hawaiiguest

      Oh it's going to happen. There's absolutely 0 doubt in my mind of that. Don't expect a report on it though.

      July 2, 2014 at 11:14 pm |
      • dandintac

        This is one of the many reasons why I believe the abortion issue is not truly about preserving life. It's about DIRTY FILTHY NASTY SE-X! Some people just hate the idea that at this very moment, young women are out having DIRTY FILTHY NASTY SE-X! and they want to punish those sl-uts!

        I cannot believe they could not have considered that restricting BC has a strong potential for increasing abortion. I don't think they are overly worred about abortion–they just don't want to provide BC so that women can have "se-x without consequences!" Believe me, if they can cut out paying for BC altogether, they will. I'm willing discussions are already under way on the strategy to do that. This was testing the waters to see if SCOTUS will allow it.

        July 2, 2014 at 11:48 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.