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She faced death in Sudan for her Christian faith. Now she's free.
Meriam Ibrahim disembarks with her children at an airport outside Rome.
July 24th, 2014
10:39 AM ET

She faced death in Sudan for her Christian faith. Now she's free.

Rome (CNN) - Mariam Yehya Ibrahim, the Sudanese Christian woman sentenced to death in Sudan because of her faith, arrived in Rome on Thursday, the Italian Foreign Ministry said.

Ibrahim "will remain in Italy for a short time and then will travel on to the United States," the ministry said.

Sudanese authorities had said Ibrahim was guilty of rejecting Islam in favor of Christianity, but her conviction for "apostasy" and adultery was overturned last month on appeal, following weeks of international controversy.

After her release, she and her husband, American Daniel Wani, were detained for two days, accused of falsifying travel documents after going to the airport in Sudan's capital, Khartoum. They were trying to fly to the United States with their baby daughter, who was born while Ibrahim was in prison, and toddler son.

Now their dream of starting a new life in the United States appears to be on the verge of becoming reality.

Not only that, but Ibrahim and her family met with Pope Francis at his private residence in Domus Santa Marta in Vatican City.

During the meeting Thursday, which lasted about half an hour, Ibrahim thanked the Pope for his and the Roman Catholic Church's support and prayers, the Vatican said.

He, in turn, thanked Ibrahim and her family for their "courageous witness and constancy of faith."

Francis also played with the children, 18-month-old Martin and 2-month-old Maya, and greeted the Italian diplomats involved in her journey to Italy.

With this gesture, the Vatican said, the Pope "desired to show his closeness, attention and prayer also to all those who suffer for their faith, in particular to Christians who are enduring persecution or limitations imposed upon their religious freedom."

FULL STORY
- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Africa • Catholic Church • Christianity • Foreign policy • Interfaith issues • Islam • Islamic law • Pope Francis • Prejudice • Religious liberty • Religious violence • Sharia

soundoff (568 Responses)
  1. Blessed are the Cheesemakers

    "Thoughts, lives and events include the presence of the CONCEPT of God." **fixed**

    fred,

    Concepts are not independent thinking agents. Concepts originate from thinking agents. While the concept is real that does not mean it is a part of reality beyond the idea itself.

    "How does your concept of God match up with what you actually observe in the eternal"

    You are making the assumption I have only one concept of god. I have as many concepts of god as have been either proposed to me, and added to those I have come up with myself. Since I believe none of them to be real they are all equally valid as concepts.

    July 25, 2014 at 1:59 am |
  2. unsername1

    I see a big smile on Mariam's face; is she happy because she was able to keep her Christian faith, or she is happy because she got out of Sudanese?

    July 24, 2014 at 11:25 pm |
  3. awanderingscot

    Let us give praise and thank our great God tonight for the release from captivity of this Christian woman. It was God who softened the heart of the captors to force them to release her. They had no intention of allowing her to leave the country otherwise.

    July 24, 2014 at 11:25 pm |
    • evolveddna

      Scoty in other news your god was totally absent for some plane passengers and children at school.... what a great guy ..a bit random don't you think. Humans worked to get this lady out of there...

      July 25, 2014 at 1:20 am |
    • observer

      awanderingscot,

      So God saved the ONE woman's life while he was watching airplanes crash with HUNDREDS of deaths. Nice guy.

      July 25, 2014 at 1:31 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      " It was God who softened the heart of the captors to force them to release her."

      I'm willing to wager that they'd see it very differently and that they'd be willing to treat you just the same all due to you not sharing the same imaginary friend. Your god nor their god had anything to do with this, you should attempt to give credit where it is due-to the HUMAN'S that helped....that would be the HUMAN thing to do.

      July 25, 2014 at 4:53 am |
    • awanderingscot

      When Christ went thru the Sheep's Gate into Jerusalem he stopped at Bethesda. All around the pool there a multi-tude of blind, lame, paralyzed, and sick people lay. Christ chose ONE man to heal at that time. What this illustrates is that God is sovereign and He does as He pleases according to His will and decrees. Someday you will be able to confront Him with your criticism when you go before Him in judgment. In the meantime, please don't be too hard on yourselves.

      July 25, 2014 at 8:10 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Now given that no-one has EVER returned from the dead to say if there is anything beyond this life it is safe to say your point is moot.
        Your comment just proves the fear-factoring of religion.
        Just in case (haha) you're right, I'm afraid your god won't be too accepting of you and how horrible you treat people. Either way, most of us wouldn't want to be next to you or your god...we prefer moral, happy people or misery.

        July 25, 2014 at 9:22 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Let us give praise and thanks to the media outlets who brought this woman's struggle to an international limelights, causing massive public outrage.
      Praise be unto Secretary of State John Kerry and the 38 Congressmen who signed the letter that prompted him to publicly condemn the Sudanese government for violating international law and human rights.
      Give praise and thanks to Britain's foreign affairs office who called out the Sudanese charge d'affaires, Bukhari Afandi, in front of the UN to urge his government to uphold its international obligations on freedom of religion
      Oh, yea let us give heartfelt thanks to the United Nations who proclaimed "The imposition and enforcement of the death penalty on pregnant women or recent mothers is inherently cruel and leads to a violation of the absolute prohibition of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment,"

      July 25, 2014 at 8:19 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        Diplomatic intervention's effect on this woman's fate is demonstrable.
        Divine intervention is not.

        If you have a successful appendectomy, is God more deserving of thanks than the surgeon?

        July 25, 2014 at 8:45 am |
    • G to the T

      " It was God who softened the heart of the captors to force them to release her. "

      So much for free will then I guess...

      July 25, 2014 at 10:28 am |
  4. dgregoryburns

    Reblogged this on Darian G. Burns and commented:
    Great Story

    July 24, 2014 at 11:21 pm |
  5. Robert Brown

    If you were God, how would you get people to love you, without affecting freewill?

    July 24, 2014 at 9:24 pm |
    • Science Works

      A free wet willie might work.

      July 24, 2014 at 9:28 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Well I would start with giving every single person proper reason to believe that I exist.

      But...

      Why would I feel the need to get people to love me? Unconditional love does not have ANY conditions.

      July 24, 2014 at 9:36 pm |
      • new-man

        God loves each of us the same, no matter what! His love is totally unconditional. He loves you, respects you and will never violate your choice to want to dwell outside of His presence- (which can only be described as hell)

        how is the friend's grandchild?

        July 24, 2014 at 10:37 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          The height of delusional rationalization.
          Is your god so utterly stupid that she wouldn't know if someone who honestly doesn't believe says they do ?
          "Many are called, but FEW are chosen". Apparently you know better.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:11 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "He loves you, respects you and will never violate your choice to want to dwell outside of His presence"

          I cannot choose to dwell inside or outside of a "presence" that I do not believe exists. That argument creates a false dicotomy.

          The child is still receiving treatment and at this point doing as well as can be expected.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:21 pm |
      • new-man

        if you can relay a condition to God's love, I'd love to hear it.

        July 24, 2014 at 10:38 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Belief

          July 24, 2014 at 11:12 pm |
        • new-man

          Belief is NOT a condition to God's love. He loves us the same even in our unbelief. God's love for you is the exact same as His love for me or any un(believer).
          The difference is the person who knows, believes and accepts that God loves them will benefit more because they are able to draw on that knowledge- receive all that God has for them; whereas the unbeliever will not receive much not because God hasn't provided it but they refuse to receive it because they don't believe it's there.
          A man can die of thirst in the midst of an abundant supply of water, if he doesn't believe the water is there, or if he doesn't turn on the faucet. All you have to do BAtC is drink! There's water for everybody, including you.

          July 25, 2014 at 7:44 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Of course it is! Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.....sounds very much like a condition-it's a direct order. Or perhaps, The fool says in his heart there is no god...just a slight bit of manipulation.
          The punishment for not believing is eternal damnation-right???
          Less than half the people on the planet are Christian and many have NEVER heard about your god...that's a tremendous amount of people potentially doomed for something that is not their fault....how sadly immoral.

          July 25, 2014 at 7:57 am |
        • new-man

          TP,
          (though we are not under the law), do you know that all sin stem from unbelief. Listen, God doesn't tell us things for His benefit, it's for our benefit – to live a life of power and victory stick to the word of God.
          the reason we choose to put other gods before the ONE TRUE GOD is because we do not believe He is true to His word in all things – and yet He is. we steal and covet because we do not believe God will provide for us. down the line... all sin has its root in unbelief.

          Even I can see that only a fool would say in his heart there is no God. That's not manipulation, that's common sense.

          There is no punishment for not believing. you doubt it's there so you do without. Eternal life is not just for when a person dies, eternal life is having an intimate relationship with God, right here, right now.

          Your spirit is eternal.. it is for this reason when a person's spirit have left their body, their spirit still exists, it cannot die. your spirit will live for ever somewhere – either with God, or outside the presence of God.
          You have made mention countless times your lack of belief in these things. I want you to know, your unbelief doesn't nullify these things. so when you boldly proclaim you have no need for a savior, Lord & King, that is your absolute right, so there is no need to complain that you will be dwelling outside of the Savior, Lord and King's kingdom because you want nothing to do with Him and His presence, so I fail to see what you're complaining about.

          you are correct to an extent that we were doomed for something that wasn't our fault; however Jesus gave us life through His life, so the same way you believe you were made a sinner through Adam's sin, it's the same way you have to believe you were made righteous and holy through Jesus due to Christ's obedience. So once again you have nothing to complain of. (we were doomed through no fault of our own; now we are saved through no 'fault' or deed of our own).

          July 25, 2014 at 8:22 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          What a load of hogwash, backed by the same stories that were written to fool you. Some of us are not so blinded by the religious virus that we fail to see the truth for what it is.
          If a person doesn't believe in your god because they were never taught or they have done the research and opened their minds, they are doomed. Your god demands belief or else.
          Sin doesn't pertain to me nor many others...it is part of your belief system and given that you've yet to give me cause to accept it (in fact you help turn people from it-ty for that), sin doesn't mean a damn thing. It's sad that you think so little of your fellow human that you think we're all bad...what a pathetic and immoral outlook on life!

          July 25, 2014 at 9:16 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "but they refuse to receive it because they don't believe it's there."

          But that is the problem new-man. An option isn't an option if you don't know you have it. And therefore it is not a question of "refusal". In order to "refuse" something you have to believe it exists in the first place. This isn't a trivial issue. So I am not "refusing" it. Christianity falls apart without the free will to "choose". I can't choose a choice that doesn't exist ....so without proper reason to believe I really don't have free will in the matter.

          July 25, 2014 at 9:21 am |
    • realbuckyball

      Since "free will" is an illusion, I wouldn't worry about it.

      July 24, 2014 at 9:51 pm |
      • new-man

        why do you say free will is an illusion.
        if it was an illusion, why did God tell Adam and Eve DO NOT eat from this particular tree? Why didn't God step in and stop them?
        If you decide in this moment to take something that isn't yours, will God stop your free will.
        Jesus tells us.. "Let this mind be in you". why did He say "let"... isn't it because you have to "allow" it. God is not going to allow you, you must "let".

        contrary to popular belief, God is not in control of the things that happen in the earth. we are. He gave the earth to us to rule over.

        "The word "sovereign" is not used in the King James Version of the Bible. It is used 303 times in the Old Testament of the New International Version, but it is always used in association with the word "LORD" and is the equivalent of the King James Version's "LORD God." Not a single one of those times is the word "sovereign" used in the manner that it has come to be used in religion in our day and time.

        Religion has resulted in the invention of a new meaning for the word "sovereign," which basically means God controls everything. Nothing can happen but what He wills or allows. However, there is nothing in the actual definition that states that. The dictionary defines "sovereign" as, "1. Paramount; supreme. 2. Having supreme rank or power. 3. Independent: a sovereign state. 4. Excellent." None of these definitions means that God controls everything.

        It is assumed that since God is paramount or supreme that nothing can happen without His approval. That is not what the Scriptures teach. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This clearly states that it is not the Lord's will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13). Relatively few people are saved compared to the number that are lost. God's will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished.

        This is because the Lord gave us the freedom to choose. He doesn't will anyone into hell. He paid for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10), but we must choose to put our faith in Christ and receive His salvation. People are the ones choosing hell by not choosing Jesus as their Savior. It is the free will of man that damns them, not God." (AWMI)

        July 25, 2014 at 7:53 am |
    • ddeevviinn

      I don't know how I would do it if I were God ( now there's a scary thought in and of itself) but I do know how God does it. He regenerates a spiritually dead human soul which enables the individual to love Him.

      Free will is an illusion.

      July 24, 2014 at 11:16 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        "He regenerates a spiritually dead human soul which enables the individual to love Him."

        Or he doesn't...

        (Just going by what you have told me as to your theology devin...I am sure you can correct me if I misunderstood)

        July 24, 2014 at 11:29 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          Your understanding is crystal clear. No worries, I would never confuse "understanding" with that of "acceptance" in your case.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:38 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Just out of curiosity (and on this point a lack of understanding), how can individuals be held eternally responsible if their belief and unbelief was determined before they were even born?

          I am sure you knew this question was coming.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:43 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          What took you so long!!! Wink.

          I'll preface this by saying that there are many christians out there, and here on this forum, who would be very willing to give you a much more palpable, user friendly answer than mine. I can't.

          There is one, and only one, reason that you and I are held responsible: we are sinful. We enter this world with a sin nature, and unless we receive what the bible describes as the "new nature" being " born again" ( perhaps the most misunderstood and misused term in the scripture) we will upon our death be separated from God eternally ( FYI, I am an annihilationist ).

          God has never once made you sin ( I use that term here to explain my view, I realize you do not accept the concept) He has never caused you to li e, ste al, ha te, have ra ge, feel like ki lling someone, use your words to verbally abuse another human being, etc... This is all your doing. It is all my doing. God in His sovereignty determined by His will alone that He would intervene and save some from their sinful human condition. The logical question is, "Why did He not do this for everyone? " My answer is, I have no idea. None whatsoever.

          And this brings me to the BIGGEST question. I have to laugh when I see the energy that is expended on this forum over questions like " How could Noah get all those animals on the ark? How could Jesus turn water into wine? Walk on the water? Talking jack-asses? blah blah blah. For me, there is only one fundamental question, it is one that has kept me up at night. I've got some things I need to do right now, but being the nocturnal creature I am I will post it a little later tonight in case you're interested.

          Just a little disclaimer: I know this will be perceived as the ultimate cop out, but on some of these weighty issues I just don't know all the answers.I can assure you of one thing, I will never fabricate or spit out some patented "Chrisitan" answer simply to appease you or to try to and make sense of something difficult.

          July 25, 2014 at 12:37 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          devin,

          I appreciate more of an honest, straight forward answer. And though I feel you gave one to the best of your ability it still really didn't answer the question. Though I do give you kudos for saying "I don't know" when you were addressing the issue I was trying to raise.

          And yes I would be interested in hearing the big question you alluded to.

          July 25, 2014 at 1:04 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          And I did not take your answer as a cop out because I felt it was not an attempt at appeasement.

          July 25, 2014 at 1:11 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          Cheese

          In the event you're still lingering.

          " still didn't really answer the question"

          I couldn't for you. I knew I couldn't before I even started typing. When an individual dismisses the concept of sin, and how that sin effects his standing before God, it naturally follows that the individual would never even entertain the idea of "responsibility" to God. But again, you posed the question ( one which in reality was hypothetical from you perspective) of how we are held responsible if belief is predetermined ? We are all in unbelief, the product of sin, what is predetermined is who will experience redemption and who will continue in their unbelief. And as I stated, the only one responsible for the sin that infects us is you and I.

          I've used the statement from Jesus before;

          " It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but I came for si nners."

          This is the primary impetus for regeneration. The recognition that something's amiss in the human soul, and that the something is a sinful nature. Without this recognition there can be no sense of responsibility.

          Well here's my question. It is one to which I will never have an answer that will suffice while I exist in this present life:

          WHY? WHY did God do it this way?

          Christian theology is very clear that there exists this sovereign being who created the world, allowed His special created beings to be infe cted with sin, provided a plan of redemption whereby they could be reconciled and the relationship restored, and that eventually those who He would call to Himself would receive eternal life .Now what is interesting is that in this dimension of future eternal life, this sovereign being will somehow enable its inhabitants to exist free from even the POSSIBILITY of SIN, pain, suffering and all this other, and pardon me here, S#$T.

          So the question is, why didn't He just do this from the beginning and include EVERY human soul, allow us all to enjoy eternal life in heaven from the get go? Why didn't He just bypass the sin and redemption thing, the death of His Son on the cross, cancer , and the school shootings, and the perpetual wars, and the little boys who suffer hor rific diseases that I would not wish on my worst enemy? Any logical, rational human being who would put themselves in the place of God, would have done it this way?

          The easy thing is to just dismiss it all as mythological nonsense, then it all goes away. But actually, it doesn't all go away for me. The paradox for me ( I'm not talking about some Kierkegaardian existentialism here) is that while at its foundation Christianity is ultimately IRRATIONAL, when I take in the WHOLE picture it makes the most sense. It is the ONLY thing that makes sense.

          July 25, 2014 at 3:03 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          devin,

          Thank you again for the honest answer.

          "The easy thing is to just dismiss it all as mythological nonsense, then it all goes away."

          I can tell you from personal experience that this was anything but "easy". I can tell you from talking to other people who have thrown away their faith it is one of the hardest things we have done and continues to be difficult. In our society it would be much easier to "go along to get along", if I would have just left my blinders on it would have been "easier". I know you are being honest with yourself. Let me tell you I am too. I am at the point that if I am being honest with myself and that isn't good enough for some god...too bad. It's all I have.

          You explained the position well and I understand the concept you were trying to relate. You stated that despite it being seemingly illogical that in actuality it is the only thing that does make sense....but you didn't explain why it makes sense. Because honestly I (obviously) just don't see that connection.

          The concept of a "sovereign being will somehow enable its inhabitants to exist free from even the POSSIBILITY of SIN, pain, suffering" doesn't make sense either unless all the people I know and love will share in it. And of course that is not possible in CHristian theology. My mother will be obstensably be there, but being as she loves me deeply she could not experience an existence free from suffering unless I was there too. And if somehow such a god was able to get rid of my memory from her...well then she isn't "her" anymore.

          July 25, 2014 at 8:59 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      How about threatening everybody with eternal torture if they fail to express their love?
      If you can't make them love you, at least make them fear you – right?

      July 25, 2014 at 8:31 am |
  6. ssq41

    You gotta love topher. Along with his brothers and sisters in the Lord, he is on helluva spiritual racist.

    Thanks, topher, for your witness for the Lord Jesus Christ...He's gotta be so proud of his toph-sheep.

    For all the Catholics out there...if you think the Evangelicals love and respect you, well...just keep pace with topher's comments here.

    July 24, 2014 at 9:06 pm |
    • awanderingscot

      how does one spiritually dead as you are judge someone who is not?

      July 25, 2014 at 12:45 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        There is not such thing as spiritually dead. Until you provide EVIDENCE that spirits exist your point is moot.
        (btw: Most Atheists were once as diseased as you but they found the cure to religion via an education and an open-mind...you should consider opening your mind and getting an education)

        July 25, 2014 at 5:01 am |
  7. No Wake Zone

    Does she have to travel to the United States? Don't we have enough idiot Christians already??

    July 24, 2014 at 7:41 pm |
  8. joey3467

    And God commanded us to go out and preach the Gospel to every creature.

    To me this is a reason to not believe the bible. God wouldn't rely on his flawed creation to get the message out unless he wanted a lot of people to not believe in god. In order for me to believe the Jesus part I would need to see a Jesus character in every culture that has ever existed in the world so that people wouldn't have to rely on flawed humans.

    July 24, 2014 at 5:03 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      Also, it's not very fair that God spoke to some people directly, Jesus too. Thomas was my favorite Apostle, he recquired proof before he would believe Jesus had risen. Thomas asked for proof and got it, so why are the rest of the non-believers considered so unreasonable? Should God be fair with the level of interaction he has with all humans?

      July 24, 2014 at 5:20 pm |
      • kevinite

        29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

        John 20:29 KJV

        There is a greater importance stressed on having faith and that they are actually blessed for believing even though they have not seen.

        July 24, 2014 at 5:31 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed"

          So Thomas only believed because he was an eyewitness and it seemed Christ was fine with that, so why wouldn't he understand the rest of us who would like to see before we are asked to believe? Instead it's a silly game of hide and seek, all the followers seek while their Gods hide and it's the same no matter what religion you are.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:38 pm |
        • kevinite

          It also shows how that he did reveal himself to Thomas, but then Thomas was also directed to testify to the world as a witness to what he experienced so that other would then hear about it and then exercise their faith and find out for themselves on a personal level whether or not Thomas and the other witnesses were speaking of were true. I do believe one can find out on a personal level. It may not be a personal visitation but one can get that spiritual reassurance nonetheless.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:39 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          Amen.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:40 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Having faith is not anything to be proud of, it tells the rational person that you have no care about the evidence.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:43 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          Faith is a great tool for scam artists, you can promise anything without ever having to deliver. Even Ponzi schemes eventually fail because they eventually get caught not being able to pay the dividends, with religion the victims won't ever know they've been scammed since the promised reward only comes after the body can no longer report back.

          July 24, 2014 at 6:01 pm |
        • kevinite

          And yet there are things in this life that we can only know through first hand experience and that there are times where we do have to have faith and trust in somebody, whether or not that may be a deity.

          July 24, 2014 at 6:09 pm |
        • No Wake Zone

          There are times where we have to trust somebody, true. And if that somebody fails our expectations we don’t make up pretend stories about how they work in mysterious ways.

          July 24, 2014 at 7:45 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Double amen kevinite

          July 24, 2014 at 8:19 pm |
        • Science Works

          And the first comment on this tread is about sky fairies RB ?

          http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/24/world/iraq-violence/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

          July 24, 2014 at 8:36 pm |
        • Science Works

          Oops thread – or could it be tinker bell RB ?

          July 24, 2014 at 8:49 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Religious faith is the refuge of scoundrels and snake oils salesman.

          July 24, 2014 at 9:44 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          neverbeenhappieratheist

          "So Thomas only believed because he was an eyewitness and it seemed Christ was fine with that, so why wouldn't he understand the rest of us who would like to see before we are asked to believe?"

          Many saw the signs and miracles Christ gave and STILL DID NOT BELEIVE; what makes you think you are different?

          July 24, 2014 at 11:34 pm |
    • kevinite

      And yet to me that is showing how important free will, stewardship, and personal accountability are in God's plan for us.

      July 24, 2014 at 5:22 pm |
      • joey3467

        Personal responsibility? You must be joking. The entire point of Christianity is to avoid personal responsibility by letting Jesus take your punishment. If you actually believed in personal responsibility you would stand before god and take your punishment like a man.

        July 24, 2014 at 5:39 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Exactly but when speaking to kevin, keep in mind you're not dealing with normal...he admits that god can't be known but yet still accepts all the mumbo that goes with it...doesn't sound like a properly functioning brain at work.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:44 pm |
        • kevinite

          Then you don't understand what I believe regarding the atonement of Jesus Christ. That it is a gift through grace but that doesn't mean that there is no effort on our part. If there were there wouldn't be so many calls continually from God to those who are believers to repent. We still have to continually strive to be better, and we do tend to falter, but even though our own efforts don't cut it, that due to sufficient effort that is where the grace of God comes into play.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:47 pm |
        • joey3467

          That doesn't change the fact that by letting Jesus take your punishment you have avoided any real personal responsibility, especially considering how Christians talk about how this life is just to set people up for eternity.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:50 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Christians are not responsible for what they do? Why all the talk of repenting (changing what you do)? Forgiving others? Making amends? Serving the orphaned and widowed? Loving enemies?

          July 24, 2014 at 5:58 pm |
        • kevinite

          It also doesn't take away the fact that there is still accountability on our part. When Christ paid the debt for our sins Christ then becomes our creditor and although the terms are more agreeable on our part our debt is still owed to him thereby to his terms which happen to be more merciful and forgiving.

          July 24, 2014 at 6:01 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          dala and kevin: Your takes are merely your interpretation. Not all Christians would agree with you. What it comes down to is that your jails are sitting at a high rate of Christians who honestly believe they are going to heaven, regardless of how heinous their crime might be...so by asking forgiveness from their god, they get this free pass while those of us who have merely claimed disbelief but yet have lead crime free lives where we attempt to do good every day are doomed...so in this sense, there is no accountability on the Christians behalf. The only thing holding me back from this supposed place called heaven is the very fact that I reject the concept due to the fact that there is zero evidence to support it and the little book that claims to be evidence has been proven wrong.

          July 24, 2014 at 6:14 pm |
        • new-man

          kevinite,
          this is a very good point, because it's in appreciation for what Jesus has done for us, that we willingly choose to make Him our Lord and Savior.
          By making Him our Savior, we're acknowledging what He's done for us; and by making Him our Lord, we're acknowledging that we will obey Him.

          how awesome is He!

          July 24, 2014 at 6:20 pm |
        • new-man

          TP,
          all the sins you or I will ever commit have already been forgiven – past, present and future. There is no such thing as a better sinner, ALL have sinned and come short of God's glory.
          "Jesus forever changed the way God relates to mankind. Sure, there are scriptural examples of God’s catastrophic judgment on sin. But God’s greatest act of judgment was when He placed all of His wrath for our sins upon Jesus. This forever satisfied God’s wrath. Since that time, God hasn’t been judging our sins (2 Cor. 5:19). God’s not angry at us. He’s not even in a bad mood."

          "Some of you may not like this, but it’s true. Sin isn’t a problem with God anymore. It’s the church that has made it a major deal. Neither past, present, nor future sins can separate you from God. The only people who will go to hell are those who have spurned and rejected the greatest sacrifice that has ever been made. In heaven, you won’t answer for your sin; Jesus already has. You will answer for your acceptance or rejection of Jesus."

          AWMI

          July 24, 2014 at 6:32 pm |
        • kevinite

          I most certainly agree with you there new-man.

          July 24, 2014 at 6:41 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "The only people who will go to hell are those who have spurned and rejected the greatest sacrifice that has ever been made."

          That is not a gift, it is an ultimatum.

          July 24, 2014 at 7:38 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Blessed: Exactly. It amazes me that they can't seem to see it that way. I view it as being similar to living in an abusive relationship...the whole do I as say or else...a constant fear. I'm so happy I'm free of those chains.

          July 24, 2014 at 8:26 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Yep TP,

          And I love it when they claim "god is cannot deal with unholiness".... "god can't change the rules" and "god is severeign".

          These are not compatable attributes.

          July 24, 2014 at 9:32 pm |
        • kevinite

          Yes, after all when it's time for the farmer to plant as opposed when it's time for the farmer to reap the farmer has to automatically becomes a different person. just like with God automatically becomes a different person because there is no possible way for God to be the same person yesterday, today, and forever:

          1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

          2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

          3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

          4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

          5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

          6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

          7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

          8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
          Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 KJV

          July 25, 2014 at 2:06 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          kevin: Thanks...visions of Footloose came to mind with that. (not sure if you're old enough to remember the movie but if not, watch it and you'll understand)

          July 25, 2014 at 5:04 am |
        • kevinite

          "Turn, turn, turn".

          July 25, 2014 at 12:07 pm |
    • Science Works

      Sort of sounds like a few on the belief blog . Religion sort of like network marking – a scam..

      Published on Jul 22, 2014
      Conservatives explain to us how the Gays, the Muslims, the Mexicans, and President Obama are all working hand in hand to destroy the moral fabric of America. Filmed on site at an anti-immigration protest in Houston, pro-immigration supporters also chime in while dancing to Salsa music. Esta muy muy crunk.

      {https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckqrudsDi6A#t=259}

      July 24, 2014 at 5:31 pm |
  9. Reality

    And now that she is free to think on her own, an update for her perusal:

    The Apostles' Creed 2014 (updated by yours truly based on the studies of NT historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

    Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven?????

    I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
    Jerusalem.

    Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
    many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
    ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    Amen
    (References used are available upon request.)

    July 24, 2014 at 3:29 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Reality: yes, she was willing to be separated from her newborn and even risk being executed for her beliefs, but now – upon reading your belief blog entry – she's dropping everything.

      for your next stop on Reality's enlightenment crusade, you should put a "coexist" bumper sticker on your car & drive through the Gaza strip. that will solve everything.

      July 24, 2014 at 3:38 pm |
      • Reality

        A recommended banner for all geographical areas to include the Gaza Strip:

        Putting the kibosh on all religion in less than ten seconds: Priceless !!!

        • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.

        • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e. the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.

        • There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.

        • There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.

        • There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.

        • Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.

        • Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.

        Added details available upon written request

        July 24, 2014 at 7:08 pm |
      • evolveddna

        Russ ....gods will never coexist..people can, but the gods they perpetuate, never. From an atheist viewpoint the whole situation this poor woman found he self in is an example of how faith, in any god, is a farce. What would have been impressive is if god him/herself.. the one she believes to be the" real" one, scooped her from the cell she was in and plonked down in a safe area in full view of many other folks., but of course that would never happen and we all know why. I am glad that other humans managed to get this woman and child to safety.. and that her life looks to be a little easier.

        July 24, 2014 at 8:20 pm |
        • Russ

          @ evolved: ironically, as a Christian, it is because she believes precisely that God has ALREADY done that in Jesus Christ that she was so willing to face down those who insisted that she say otherwise – even if they threatened to take her life (again, because she was confident in what Jesus did in the resurrection, e.g., Jn.11:25).

          July 24, 2014 at 9:08 pm |
        • Reality

          But John's gospel is historically nil as is the resurrection. Details previously presented.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:18 pm |
        • evolveddna

          Russ.... it was humans that saved her.. no mythical being came out of the sky.. as it also failed to do for the innocent passengers last week.. If she or her captors did not have any faith.. this whole episode would not exist...they would have ,,co existed.. tough thing for for jealous gods to do...

          July 25, 2014 at 1:45 am |
        • awanderingscot

          ok Dorian, go on in your disbelief, no one is twisting your arm.

          July 25, 2014 at 8:17 am |
  10. bostontola

    Here's a story the vast majority of us can agree is a good outcome. I hope their family does well. It will be challenging.

    July 24, 2014 at 3:09 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Bostontola: agreed.

      July 24, 2014 at 3:24 pm |
  11. Løki

    Bishop, Patriarch of Jerusalem: "Convert to Islam... repent later!"

    Balian of Ibelin: "You've taught me a lot about religion, your Eminence."

    July 24, 2014 at 1:18 pm |
  12. lunchbreaker

    I don't care the religion or lack thereof, it is a good day when some one is free from oppresion because of their beliefs.

    July 24, 2014 at 12:45 pm |
    • midwest rail

      topher should be forced to have this post tattooed on his forehead.

      July 24, 2014 at 12:51 pm |
    • igaftr

      Truly...I wish we could have that in the USA.

      July 24, 2014 at 12:52 pm |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      The irony is that many of the RWNJs currently falling all over themselves shouting hosannas over Ms. Ibrahim escaping theocratic tyranny would be as happy as fat to establish a theocracy here in America...

      July 24, 2014 at 12:59 pm |
      • igaftr

        America was a theocracy for many years, at least in large part. It was only53 years ago it was declared unconst!tutional to teach the bible in public schools for one example. If you went to scholl, you learned their beliefs...regardless of your own.

        There are still many, many pieces of that theocracy around us.

        July 24, 2014 at 1:11 pm |
    • tallulah131

      I agree.

      July 24, 2014 at 1:28 pm |
  13. colin31714

    Dear Christians:

    God here.

    Unfortunately, I have no real interest in this situation. In fact, I don’t care about anything, because, you see, I do not exist. Is not the concept of a 13,700,00,000 year old being (age of the Universe) capable of creating the entire Universe and its billions of galaxies, monitoring simultaneously the actions and thoughts of the 7 billion human beings on this planet 24/7/365 utterly ludicrous?

    Look, if I did exist, I would have left you a book a little more consistent, timeless and independently verifiable than the collection of Greco-Roman Middle Eastern mythology you call the Bible. Hell, I bet you cannot tell me one thing about any of its authors or how and why it was compiled with certain writings included and others excluded, nor how it has been edited over the centuries, yet you cite it for the most extraordinary of supernatural claims.

    Thirdly, when I sent my “son” (whatever that means, given that I am god and do not mate) to Earth, he would have visited the Chinese, Ja.panese, Europeans, Russians, sub-Saharan Africans, Australian Aboriginals, Mongolians, Polynesians, Micronesians, Indonesians and native Americans, not just a few Jews. He would also have exhibited a knowledge of something outside of the Greco-Roman Middle East.

    Fourthly, I would not spend my time hiding, refusing to give any tangible evidence of my existence, and then punish those who are smart enough to draw the natural conclusion that I do not exist by burning them forever. That would make no sense to me, given that I am the one who elected to withhold all evidence of my existence in the first place.

    Fifthly, in the same vein, I would not make about 5% of the human population gay, then punish them for being that way. In fact, I wouldn’t care about how humans have $ex at all, given that I created all of the millions of millions of species on the planet, all of whom are furiously reproducing all the time. Human $ex would be of no interest to me, given that I can create Universes. Has it ever occurred to you that your obsession with making rules around human $ex is an entirely human affair?

    Sixth, I would have smitten all you Christian activists, and all evangelicals and fundamentalists long before this. You people drive me nuts. You are so small minded and speak with such false authority. Many of you still believe in the talking snake nonsense from Genesis. I would kill all of you for that alone and burn you for an afternoon (burning forever is way too barbaric even for a sick, sadistic bast.ard like me to contemplate).

    Seventh, the whole idea of members of one species on one planet surviving their own physical deaths to “be with me” is utter, mind-numbing nonsense. Grow up. You will die. Get over it. I did. Hell, at least you had a life. I never even existed in the first place.

    Eighth, I do not read your minds, or “hear your prayers” as you euphemistically call it. There are 7 billion of you. Even if only 10% prayed once a day, that is 700,000,000 prayers. This works out at 8,000 prayers a second – every second of every day. Meanwhile I have to process the 100,000 of you who die every day between heaven and hell. Dwell on the sheer absurdity of that for a moment.

    Finally, the only reason you even consider believing in me is because of where you were born. Had you been born in India, you would likely believe in the Hindu gods, if born in Tibet, you would be a Buddhist. Every culture that has ever existed has had its own god(s) and they always seem to favor that particular culture, its hopes, dreams and prejudices. What, do you think we all exist? If not, why only yours?

    Look, let’s be honest with ourselves. There is no god. Believing in me was fine when you cringed in fear during the Dark Ages and thought the World was young, flat and simple. Now we know how enormous, old and complex the Universe is.

    Move on – get over me. I did.

    God

    July 24, 2014 at 12:44 pm |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      colin, just for once can we be gratified at someone escaping theocratic tyranny without starting the Standing Argument all over again?...

      July 24, 2014 at 12:49 pm |
      • colin31714

        yes, of course. Just don't read my comment.

        July 24, 2014 at 12:56 pm |
    • jhg45

      I think you need a real good Bible study course so at least you would have some accurate ideas of what it is all about. Please ask some of the people who are serious about that book and what it really teaches, thanks, j

      July 24, 2014 at 12:50 pm |
      • colin31714

        Sure. What did I get wrong?

        July 24, 2014 at 12:56 pm |
        • joey3467

          Why is it that people are always accusing you of not knowing anything about the Bible, but then can't point out a single thing you got wrong?

          July 24, 2014 at 1:30 pm |
        • colin31714

          Yes, it happens often. I think that, once you call out Christian beliefs for what they really are, they look sillier than even most Christians realize.

          July 24, 2014 at 1:32 pm |
        • believerfred

          No matter how many times you are told just how wrong you are it has no effect and you post the same silly stuff over and over.

          July 24, 2014 at 1:46 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Kudos fred. you just proved joey's point...lol

          July 24, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          When you point out the theological mistakes, assumptions and misunderstandings Colin expresses he either:

          a. Insults you

          b. Disappears

          c. Claims he is right, because he says so

          d. Has unreasonable message board posters who happen to just as anti-theist as him come to his defense.

          There are some very reasonable, respectful and intelligent atheists that post here. I have never seen one come to Colin's defense. In fact, I've seen some publicly distance themselves from his tactics and reasoning.

          I've seen an editor of this belief blog step in to tell Colin he is crossing a line and to cut it out. That is how infantile and irrational his behaviors get sometimes.

          July 24, 2014 at 2:11 pm |
        • colin31714

          a. Agreed, at times I do insult you Dalahast.

          b. Yes, I come and go, as do most posters here. Often when I stop responding to you it is out of exhaustion. Debating with you is nauseating once one has heard the same drivel more than twice.

          c. When I am right, it is not because I say so, but because the evidence supports me.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:51 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          a. You insult anyone that disagrees with you. Not just me. For some reason you give free passes to atheists. They can say something stupid, ignorant, wrong or idiotic and you just ignore it.

          b. No, you sometimes completely ignore honest requests. You give some 1/2 ass cop-out.

          c. You are often wrong. For instance, I asked for evidence to support your claim you made. You could have either said:
          1. It was your opinion, not a factual statement
          2. Provided evidence

          You decided to make an insult and then hypocritically accuse me of something you do.

          There is evidence of the CNN Moderator calling you out. As if you were a little kid who doesn't know how to behave in Kindergarten. And you turned around and called others childish?

          July 24, 2014 at 4:00 pm |
        • SeaVik

          I thought Colin's post was well thought-out, factual and pointed out many of the issues with religion. Respectfully, what did he get wrong?

          July 24, 2014 at 2:22 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I know you enjoy anything that attacks religion. But re-read it. He isn't attacking religion. But Christianity specifically.

          Colin belongs to a secular religion/not really a religion/but really is a religion – the American Humanist Association.

          Here, he is playing God. Look at how he reasons how hard it would be for himself to hear all the prayers of people. Colin assumes God is dumber than him (I mean who could be smarter than Colin?) and has a limited, imperfect, flawed mind – because that is what Colin possesses.

          It is a joke. You think it was well thought-out and factual? Remember when that Onion had a parody making fun of atheists, and you thought it made fun of Christians? He exaggerated and made assumptions based on his proud atheistic beliefs. He was trying to be funny. Not well thought-out and factual. Come on, SeaVik.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:11 pm |
        • colin31714

          Great, what did I get wrong?

          July 24, 2014 at 4:10 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You are not God.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:14 pm |
        • colin31714

          Of course, I exist.

          thanks for proving Joey3467s point; "joey3467
          "Why is it that people are always accusing you of not knowing anything about the Bible, but then can't point out a single thing you got wrong?"

          July 24, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Uh, read Fred's post below.

          I pointed out your "hearing prayers" theory.

          basically: "I, Colin, couldn't answer 700,000,000 prayers a day – thus God can't".

          There. I just proved you wrong.

          You can't point a single thing wrong with that. My friend Billy just said so.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:19 pm |
        • colin31714

          The idea of a being passing its time hearing and answering 700,000,000 prayers a day (which involves mind reading, by the way) is silly. Silly and childish. Does he have other magic super powers, too?

          This is my point. Believing in God requires one to believe in silly, childish things. You just happen to believe them, so you get offended when I point it out.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:28 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Yea, but you are thinking about it as a human being.

          What time does God have to pass? If God created you, why can't he know you? Why does it have to be "mind reading"? What if God knowing you is a good thing? Not something to fear?

          I don't believe in God the way you describe.

          You are free to believe that for yourself. Your label of silly is subjective. It is your opinion.

          When you do something like suggest you know what I believe, I will question you on that.

          You really are not at all as reasonable, logical or sensible as you proclaim to be.

          The evidence you produce, from your silly tests to your childish temper tantrums, suggests otherwise.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:39 pm |
        • colin31714

          And I don't ever respond to believerfred because he is either very old or otherwise lacking a little in his faculties. I don't intend altering that.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:32 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Well, he kind of proved Joey's theory wrong.

          But, oh well.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:43 pm |
        • SeaVik

          "It is a joke. You think it was well thought-out and factual?"

          I am well aware that it is satire and that wasn't actually god who posted. What I meant is that it makes fun of factual pieces of the Christian religion.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:50 pm |
        • joey3467

          For Colin to be wrong, for example, someone will have to show how "answering prayers" is in any way different than "reading your mind"

          July 24, 2014 at 4:54 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Where does the Bible say that when God "hears our prayers" he is actually "reading our minds"? And what does that actually entail?

          Can you show me some Bible verses that influenced him to bring this point up so we can discuss this?

          July 24, 2014 at 4:59 pm |
        • SeaVik

          "For Colin to be wrong, for example, someone will have to show how "answering prayers" is in any way different than "reading your mind"

          What are you talking about? You are the one who said he didn't understand the bible. All you have to do is point out something he said that is wrong and not what the bible actually says.

          Claiming that you know what the bible means better than he does is your opinion. What you said is that he was wrong and you have yet to show any evidence of that.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:00 pm |
        • SeaVik

          Dala, I don't claim to be an expert on scripture. I just know that Christians pray and think a god is listening. Unless you dispute that, where it says that in the bible (or whether or not it's in the bible) is hardly relevant.

          Are you disputing the idea that Christians think a god can hear (or feel or know or receive in any way) their prayers?

          July 24, 2014 at 5:03 pm |
        • joey3467

          Wait, are you claiming that there are not literally millions of Christians who believe that god hears their prayers? Do you believe that if you pray god can answer/hear it? If so how is this any different than god reading your mind?

          July 24, 2014 at 5:09 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I'm asking if we can look at what the Bible says in regards to this.

          I get that one person told Colin he should read the Bible, so the onus is on that guy to explain himself.

          But I didn't say it. I'm trying to have a different conversation on the matter.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:10 pm |
        • joey3467

          And Jesus answered saying to them, "Have faith in God. 23"Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. 24"Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.…

          July 24, 2014 at 5:19 pm |
        • SeaVik

          Well, to your point Dala, it was a joke about Christians. The fact is, Christians pray and claim that a god can receive those prayers somehow. Whether that is spelled out in the bible or just a Christian practice, I don't know (or particularly care).

          July 24, 2014 at 5:26 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          "My friend Billy just said so"

          Lying again! Shame on you...outside of topher, I find it hard to believe anyone tolerates you!

          July 24, 2014 at 5:29 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”"

          Isn't that what Jesus describes as prayer? In context of bringing about an ongoing life with God? And also forgiving others and overcoming our shortcomings?

          July 24, 2014 at 5:31 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          TruthPrevails1

          I was joking.

          I have had some atheists engage in conversation with me on this blog that didn't end in name calling and insults. We don't all have to live that way.

          They've shown me a better way. I appreciate it.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:33 pm |
        • joey3467

          To me it means that god will answer all prayers as long as the person praying is a true believer.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:34 pm |
        • joey3467

          Also, why leave out the first part about god moving mountains if you ask him to?

          July 24, 2014 at 5:36 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Dala: Sorry. You do happen to be one of the less neurotic Christians here...at least you attempt some compassion.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:42 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          + To me it means that god will answer all prayers as long as the person praying is a true believer.

          Not necessarily. Look at the other passages. Jesus curses a fig tree? A fig tree is often used as his symbol for Israel. I imagine he is pointing to that specific fig tree when he starts talking. And then points to the mountain. And the sea.

          + Also, why leave out the first part about god moving mountains if you ask him to?

          You already posted it that part.

          Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain (there was a temple on that specific mountain, those religious leaders in the temple were opposed to Jesus)
          “Be taken up and thrown into the sea" (the sea symbolizes destruction and ensuing chaos)”
          and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.

          It may not just mean we will get whatever we pray for. Especially how Jesus actually teaches others how to pray.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:48 pm |
        • new-man

          joey,
          "All things are possible through the name of Jesus (Matt 19:26). God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow (Phil 2:9-10)

          There is power to overcome everything in the world in the name of Jesus. It is for this very reason you can speak to your mountain – debt, sickness, fear, lack, whatever your mountain is, you can speak to your mountain. Notice Jesus didn't say pray to God about your mountain, He said speak to your mountain, tell it exactly what you want it to do, and it will be done in the name of Jesus.

          This is prayer. However there is no speaking to God or begging God... You command in Jesus' name, and it will be done because at the name of Jesus every knee must bow!

          July 24, 2014 at 5:59 pm |
        • jhg45

          wow, sorry I didn't get back sooner but I never thought you were serious. to answer your question, all of it was wrong and to start, for one it was never God's idea to burn people, (see Jer. 7:31) more on request, j

          July 25, 2014 at 10:00 am |
      • rogerthat2014

        Surely you can't be serious.

        July 24, 2014 at 2:19 pm |
    • believerfred

      "God here."
      =>agreed but that is only in your mind.

      "Unfortunately, I have no real interest in this situation. In fact, I don’t care about anything, because, you see, I do not exist."
      =>So you are smarter than Spinoza and Einstein...........that goes with your thinking you are god.
      =>Your error is to suggest God does not exist. There is no such thing as non existence if there was we would not need to define and refer to non existence or non existent matter, energy or concepts in terms of known existing matter, energy and concepts. If that is not good enough for you non existence is a logical conflict in itself. If there is such a thing as non existence then you could explain how one can go south of the South Pole or make square circles.

      "Is not the concept of a 13,700,00,000 year old being (age of the Universe)..... 24/7/365 utterly ludicrous?"
      =>Certainly it is but that is your utterly ludicrous concept not the reality of God as revealed or the concept of God by the majority. Granted your false concept exists but it does not carry the weight of opposing concepts.

      " I would have left you a book a little more consistent, timeless"
      =>The oral traditions and written words have been around thousands of years and you are more wrapped up in them than most believers..............define timeless
      =>consistent from day one it is the story of the power of love to bring unity in a purpose onto God.

      "independently verifiable"
      =>what do you not understand when God said "without faith it is impossible to please God"

      "collection of Greco-Roman Middle Eastern mythology"
      =>Please go to Acts and see how Saul of Tarsus put the gods of Greek mythology in there place.

      "Hell, I bet you cannot tell me one thing about any of its authors"
      =>you mean like Saul of Tarsus whose prolific writings in the New Testament are accepted even by the harshest of skeptics?

      "how and why it was compiled with certain writings included and others excluded"
      =>common information go Google it.

      "edited over the centuries"
      =>yeah, how many people understand Hebrew these days. There were no words for say universe at the beginning so yes some editing required. If you are bothered by all the editing please see only those verses out of the Dead Sea Scrolls (yes extant) back to 408 BC as they contain enough of the prime directive so even Captain Collin could find his way, that is if he was really interested.

      -oh, I am bored already good by.

      July 24, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
      • SeaVik

        "There is no such thing as non existence if there was we would not need to define and refer to non existence or non existent matter, energy or concepts in terms of known existing matter, energy and concepts."

        Does that actually make sense to you? So you believe in unicorns, fairies, Martians, and, well, everything imaginable and unimaginable since it's not possible for anything to not exist?

        July 24, 2014 at 2:31 pm |
        • believerfred

          Do you not have a concept of unicorns etc.? At a minimum that concept exists. Did you want to deny that as you deny God on the same basis............I will wait patiently

          July 24, 2014 at 2:35 pm |
        • SeaVik

          Huh? Yes, I deny the existence of god(s) and unicorns. I don't deny that they are imaginary concepts.

          July 24, 2014 at 2:38 pm |
        • believerfred

          SeaVik
          The concept of say tooth fairy, tinker bell defines their nature and thus are exactly what they are in concept and reality. We have no basis to claim they exist in any other form or substance.
          The concept of Martians and unicorns as to form and substance has a few more variables to consider. There is no physical evidence of Martians so existence in the physical is unknown based on known concept of Martians. Unicorns on the other hand generally exist in concept and form consistent with concepts expressed. Some unicorns are absent physical form and substance as with concepts that approach that of the tooth fairy. Other unicorns such as 4 particular references in King James Bible in concept were strong beasts that physically existed thus had both physical form and substance that is evidenced by other accounts, Egyptian codex and fossil records while others such as the multicolored unicorn of the Talmud is symbolic in concept and in context.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:01 pm |
        • SeaVik

          What is your point? I was responding to the claim that something can't not exist. Obviously, it is indeed possible for imagined things to not actually exist. God is one of those imagined things. No need to make it more complicated.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:10 pm |
        • believerfred

          SeaVik
          You are free to deny god or gods as most are known mythology with evidence to support such denial. There is no evidence to support denial of the God of Spinoza as that concept of God does indeed exist given that this concept of God is a naturalistic expression of what is and further the form and substance observed is consistent with the concept.
          The God of Abraham and by extension the God of the Bible has the form and substance of the God of Spinoza then becomes embellished with anthropomorphic and other theological attributes such that there are almost as many concepts of God as there are observers. Most believers reject other concepts of God or assimilate concepts depending on various factors.
          You probably have a concept of God as does virtually every human. That should cue any logical individual to concur that God is reality in concept and further there is no doubt reality reflects the cumulative impact of concept such that one cannot distinguish the form and substance of God from reality. Therefore you can deny God but you can only deny your concept of God not the existence of God.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:32 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          (SeaVik, you are approaching this wrong. You can get Fred to believe in something that doesn't exist, like leprechauns. Just tell him they are real, he doesn't consider ANYTHING past that statement. Once you get him to believe you, tell him you made the whole thing up and that will show him how that is exactly like God. I'm serious, he'll believe in any imaginary thing you suggest. He is that gullible.)

          July 24, 2014 at 3:37 pm |
        • believerfred

          Dala
          What? I understand what Colin does but it has effect and is mocking

          July 24, 2014 at 4:10 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Leprechauns are real, Fred.

          Trust me.

          Do you believe in them now?

          July 24, 2014 at 4:16 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "There is no evidence to support denial of the God of Spinoza as that concept of God does indeed exist"

          fred,

          The concept exists but there is no evidence to support the acceptance of the God of Spinoza as reality. No I cannot deny the possibility...but accepting that as being true is a whole 'nother issue. And going from the god of Spinoza to the god of the bible is not a just another step...it is a huge leap.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:43 pm |
        • joey3467

          Leprechauns are real, Fred.

          Trust me.

          Do you believe in them now?

          Replace Leprechruans with god and it is sounds to me exactly like what you do when you claim god is real.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:43 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          @Joey

          Right. For you it does.

          But not everybody else.

          And it is not exactly the same. I've never heard any credible reasons for believing in leprechauns. Nor have seen any people our society deems as note-worthy individuals – like doctors or humanitarians – who believe in leprechauns.

          I have seen such people who believe in God. Or who don't believe in God. So believers and atheists have some kind of valid understanding I can compare my beliefs to. I can read what they say about their understanding. Most have some reasonable things to say.

          I can't find that for leprechauns, though.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:49 pm |
        • SeaVik

          "Therefore you can deny God but you can only deny your concept of God not the existence of God."

          Let me see if you're right.

          God does not exist.

          Looks like I can indeed deny the existence of god. Guess your silly rational didn't work.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:56 pm |
        • joey3467

          I didn't say everyone does, but I honestly don't see a difference at all. To me there is as much evidence for Leprechauns as there is for any of the gods any human has ever thought might be real. I am willing to listen to scientists when they talk about science because they have evidence to back up what they say. If a scientist believes in god, that is fine, but unless said scientist can back up their claims about god in the same way they can with say gravity then I see no reason to just believe god is real because someone smarter then I does.

          Replace Leprechaun with another god that people do believe in then and tell me why I should believe a Christian over a Hindu when neither have compelling evidence that what they believe is in fact real?

          July 24, 2014 at 5:00 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          SeaVik

          You can deny God.

          That is your choice. I've never criticized you for that choice.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:01 pm |
        • SeaVik

          Dala, that wasn't directed towards you. It was directed towards believerfred who seems to be claiming that it is impossible for anything to not exist.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:28 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Whoops, sorry. There I go, trying to make it all about me again.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:34 pm |
        • believerfred

          SeaVik
          SeaVik you responded ["Therefore you can deny God but you can only deny your concept of God not the existence of God." Let me see if you're right. God does not exist. Looks like I can indeed deny the existence of god. Guess your silly rational didn't work.]
          =>Look again I said you CAN deny God but you can only deny your concept of God. Your statement can only apply to your concept of God it cannot deny God as the concept of God is proven to exist in reality while your denial of that proven concept does not manifest itself in reality in any form whatsoever nor have you provided any scientifically evidence to substantiate your concept. What do you not understand about this?
          There are those who deny the moon landing happened which is their concept and has that same validity, form and substance as your denial.

          July 24, 2014 at 9:10 pm |
        • believerfred

          joey3467
          "Leprechauns are real, Fred.
          =>The concept of leprechauns as real is slightly different than the Tooth Fairy example because the Tooth Fairy is a known children's story and known never to have had physical form. Leprechauns however have a provable physical origin in folklore subsequently coupled with provable non physical attributes and tales of all sorts. The Leprechauns on your Lucky Charms are two dimensional graphics of fun fantasy characters the concept of which is identical to their form and substance in reality and accordingly exist as such. The Irish pigmy or small aged red headed drunk men do exist but that is all they are and no evidence exists otherwise so that reality goes without saying. There are relatively few who believe in the existence of physical manifestations of the Lucky Charms version of leprechauns. Their concept of leprechaun is without evidence of presence in reality in any form or substance they exist in concept only.

          "Replace Leprechruans with god and it is sounds to me exactly like what you do when you claim god is real."
          =>Yes, there are many gods or god that fit the hat of a Leprechaun.
          =>The God of Abraham does not. The concept, form and substance of God beginning with the God of Spinoza is proven by Spinoza's Modal Metaphysics. You can read my post above to SeaVik God has not changed in the past few hours. The God of Spinoza is not limited or affected by your concept of God as your concept is foreign to the form and substance of God. Proof of the power and presence of God in the form and substance as detailed by Spinoza can be inferred by the effect and affect on the physical world. That presence is further self evident throughout reality and is part of reality regardless of your concept of God. Even militant atheists cannot shake free of the need to undermine, mock, and degrade God (regardless of concept with the Christian concept attracting the greatest of negative energies). The presence of God is part of our existence. Even you cannot escape the presence.

          July 25, 2014 at 12:14 am |
        • believerfred

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers
          I have not addressed the concept of Christ or the Trinity and I have not addressed the concept of Allah. I was addressing the concept of Spinoza's God because it addresses naturalism and is evidenced in and by the natural. I replied to you earlier that it was Einsteins fascination with the proofs presented that caught my attention and changed his views on God.

          " there is no evidence to support the acceptance of the God of Spinoza as reality"
          =>The God of Spinoza has the form an substance of the God of Abraham absent all the theological stuff that causes the knee jerk reactions from the anti theists on this site. This deterministic pantheism has a major advantage in addressing atheists as pantheism is the polar opposite of atheism. If God and the nature are one (pantheism) then nature is the substance of God and everything remains constant if I remove God we can address substance which should be objectively verifiable. That substance is nature and is all that exists since there is no such thing as non existence. Likewise concept can only exist as there is no such thing as non existence as to concept. The concept of God exists. The concept of God has for 10,000 years altered reality. Reality can only be what it is, it can only exist as it exists there is no other existence. Reality is riddled with the concept of God. Thoughts, lives and events include the presence of God.

          Does your concept of God demand God have the form and substance of a being? If so that is your concept which lacks omnipresence. How does your concept of God match up with what you actually observe in the eternal

          July 25, 2014 at 1:35 am |
        • observer

          believerfred,

          Einstein was an AGNOSTIC and PRETENDING he was other is just a FALSE claim by you. Stick with FACTS.

          July 25, 2014 at 1:40 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "Thoughts, lives and events include the presence of the CONCEPT of God." **fixed**

          fred,

          Concepts are not independent thinking agents. Concepts originate from thinking agents. While the concept is real that does not mean it is a part of reality beyond the idea itself.

          "How does your concept of God match up with what you actually observe in the eternal"

          You are making the assumption I have only one concept of god. I have as many concepts of god as have been proposed to me, and added to those I have come up with myself. Since I believe none of them to be real they are all equally valid as concepts...

          July 25, 2014 at 2:00 am |
        • believerfred

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers
          "While the concept is real that does not mean it is a part of reality beyond the idea itself."
          =>A pim chip is the physical boundary containing the "thinking processes" of static memory so think of it as your brain. Alternatives are stored and accessed randomly or in prioritized fashion (aka like your many concepts of God). The robot does function and react to its environment preforming tasks once performed by humans. It can order parts, copy its code and assemble a bot like itself, thus it is capable of reproduction. The bot meets the definition of life.
          Exactly what part of this process is not real and is not part of reality?
          =>On a biblical note the enemies of Israel did not fear the God of Israel because they did not know the God of Israel (i.e. they did not have the same concept of God). They feared Israel because God was with them.
          Exactly what part of that is not reality.
          =>The founders of this country had to present a concept of God that would unify this nation and the generic "endowed by their creator" was the ticket. The concept was true to all existing concepts at that level. Appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of their intentions before signing the Declaration of Independence put the banner of God in the cause without creating division. All just as Moses had done before attacking Israels enemies in the name of their concept of God which by the way fits the founders expressed concept.
          Exactly what part of this is not reality? Exactly what part of the additional power, strength and determination empowered by the concept of God is not reality?
          =>do not confuse the manifestations of God with the presence of God in his people. When Moses asked God whom shall I say sent me, God replied tell them "I AM" sent you. Note past, present and future are collapsed as God simply is.

          July 25, 2014 at 1:08 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          fred,

          I can have a concept of a pink hufflelup, that doesn't mean pink hufflelump's exist.

          Man can cliam, as a group, that rights come from pink hufflelump's....that doesn't make it true.

          I really can't comprehend how you have covinced yourself of this fantasy fred.

          July 25, 2014 at 8:49 pm |
        • believerfred

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers
          Your concept of a pink hufalupas exists there is no evidence of a pink hufalupas therefore it only exists in your concept. Mankind has a concept of pink hufalupas without evidence of that concept it does not exist except in concept.
          Mankind has a concept of a pink hufalupas without known physical form and substance for which they build pink temples and ware pink shirts. The pink hufalupas is reality in concept and evidenced in reality (pink temples, pink shirts). Over 6,000 years millions of lives are lost fighting over the concept of pink hufalupas with laws and governments engaged and other concepts of pink hufalupas form in response such that the enitre world expends energy positive and negative in response to the first cause the concept of hufalupas. The pink hufalupas exists and evidence is overwhelming in the physical as the pink hufalupas cannot be extracted from reality

          July 25, 2014 at 9:29 pm |
        • Doris

          Goodness. I'm going to go fix a margarita and I hope when I come back you all are not arguing over pink stuff.

          July 25, 2014 at 9:48 pm |
        • believerfred

          Doris
          Tomorrow morning you can explain the reality of pink elephants to Blessed

          July 25, 2014 at 9:53 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          fred,

          I truly think you a few fries short of a Happy Meal if you think because men build buildings to, fight wars for, make prayers to, give names to, attribute rights from, claim to talk to, cut genitalia for, handle snakes because of, abstain from certain se.xual act for the sake of....god(s)....means god(s) exist beyond a concept in the heads of men. You have made some deluded statements, but that one trumps them all.

          July 25, 2014 at 10:17 pm |
        • believerfred

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers
          ........and I am amazed you continue to deny that which is self evident. That unique difference between man and animal right there in front of us. The capacity to worship (do not get caught up in the negative concept some have of this term) which is the pinnacle of love. Jesus gave the best example in His love for the Father and love for the creation. One cannot doubt the power of the concept of Christ or the concept of the cross as it is the image of God in man. One cannot deny the existence of the object of worship for Christians, Jews or Muslims. One cannot deny the form and substance of that object is exactly as understood in the very concept of God and one can never deny that object of worship is in the heart of those who love God. This correlates 100% with the Word of God that has come down through the ages.
          The symbolism of the serpent and the tree carried a picture message that is worth a thousand words. The serpent symbolic of deception and the tree having all the desires of life in the natural is preferable to man over unity in the perfect presence of God. The journey as shown by the chosen ones is in a hope of a promise when God is with them. That journey ends when the last possible hope of God with us is extinguished.
          Remember the enemies of Israel in their ancient journey did not fear God because they did not know the God of Israel. They feared Israel because God was with them. Your concept of God lacks understanding of form and substance.

          July 26, 2014 at 9:41 am |
        • ausphor

          fred
          Interesting rant. About Jews and Jesus, think again. You do not seem to understand that Jesus and God, those names can be replaced by the names of many other Deities. Listen up, really pay attention, if the Christian God is so omnipotent that he can save everyone's sorry ass, why did he miss out on getting the message out to two thirds of the people on earth? Christians always duck the question, why is god such a failure and even the people he supposedly got the message to have split into thousands of different groups each accusing the other that they got the God message wrong, pathetic.

          July 26, 2014 at 10:14 am |
        • believerfred

          ausphor
          "why did he miss out on getting the message out to two thirds of the people on earth?"
          =>The biblical answer is that God knows every possible outcome including choices we never made but could have made. Existence presents everyone with the best possible opportunity to reveal our true soul in the presence of alternate desires. At the close of existence in these physical constraints our soul (essence of our cumulative thoughts, feelings etc. that are not physical) remains tethered to that which we truly desired. If that is the natural then we are in trouble as the all things in the physical cease to exist as organic matter becomes inorganic. This is death as you are tethered to that which is void of life. On the other hand if your soul is tethered to the eternal then that death is not experienced.

          "why is god such a failure and even the people he supposedly got the message to have split into thousands of different"
          =>The Biblical answer is clear man prefers his own way over the ways of God. This is evidenced by Adam and Eve (representative or actual physical beings matters not) who went after desires of the natural world rather than continue in Gods presence. The evidence continues from their first children right down to you and I. We prefer our own desires.

          Made in the image of God (capacity to create, worship, love) includes infinite expression which if limited (i.e. we only have choice A thru R ) destroys that capacity. We can be evil or Christ like to our hearts desire. This ends with no two people ever having the same view or soul for that matter and as such no one image of God. This is the design and purpose. The shame is some people elect to limit their existence to desires that are only physical (i.e. natural, carnal etc) never experiencing freedom from that bondage as the Bible calls it.
          Jesus gave a way to escape that bondage, others with a different perspective look for escape as they prefer it.

          July 26, 2014 at 11:02 am |
        • ausphor

          fred
          I have to admit that I simply skimmed through your response because anything that starts with "the bible says" I immediately discount to be so biased in regards to the other 5 billion people on this planet. You do know their are other deities out there? You live in your Christian bubble and yet Christians are split into thousands of cults that cannot even agree on basic doctrine, pretty hard for outsiders to take salvation serious when so much of the inst!tutes are simply a money making service industry for the hierarchy.

          July 26, 2014 at 11:19 am |
        • believerfred

          ausphor
          Your question was about God as observed by monotheistic beliefs so the Bible is the source.
          "You do know their are other deities out there?"
          =>there are as many concepts of deities as there are minds with capacity to conceive them

          "hard for outsiders to take salvation serious when so much of the inst!tutes are simply a money making service industry for the hierarchy."
          =>the same can be said for the Dawkins money machine as such is the result of ungodly desire regardless if in the name of religion or secular. The example by Jesus was is stark contrast

          July 26, 2014 at 11:32 am |
      • Dalahäst

        Today is the 2 year anniversary from when Colin first posted that. And the 100th time since that time, too.

        A moment of silence, for such an amazing packaged answer.

        To 2 more years – and 100 more postings.

        https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#filter=0&q=%22Look%2C+let%E2%80%99s+be+honest+with+ourselves.+There+is+no+god.+Believing+in+me+was+fine+when+you+cringed+in+fear+during+the+Dark+Ages+and+thought+the+World+was+young%2C+flat+and+simple.+Now+we+know+how+enormous%2C+old+and+complex+the+Universe+is.+%22&start=30

        July 24, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
      • believerfred

        observer
        I did not make that claim you did! I only expressed Einsteins change from total rejection of God towards deterministic pantheism as a result of fascination with the God of Spinoza. Einstein was agnostic as to certain aspects of belief not agnostic. His concept of God was not the God of theology but he believed as expressed in his letter concerning loss of a good friend: " "Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That signifies nothing. For us BELIEVING physicists the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

        July 25, 2014 at 12:21 pm |
  14. Vic

    ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰

    July 24, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
    • zhilla1980wasp

      "♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰

      no he isn't, he was human. oh and btw those crosses are pagan. i love thieves that show off what they stole. lol

      July 24, 2014 at 12:03 pm |
      • noahsdadtopher

        Right. Because the crosses have nothing to do with Roman capital punishment.

        July 24, 2014 at 12:15 pm |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          yup; the same as crosses have nothing to do with any other religions death penalty. posts of crosses have always been used to torture people to death.

          pagan's used it as a symbol.....along with the pentagram, which christians made "evil". lol

          July 24, 2014 at 12:18 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          as an example, the Egyptian ankh was a fertility symbol, not an instrument of torture. later, a cross form was added, but not the cross by itself. the cross by itself represents torture.

          July 25, 2014 at 12:14 am |
    • Alias

      Jesus Christ is a myth

      July 24, 2014 at 12:06 pm |
      • jhg45

        no he was a mythter and now sthpirit.

        July 24, 2014 at 12:40 pm |
    • joey3467

      Jesus Christ, can't hit a curve ball.

      July 24, 2014 at 12:10 pm |
    • Løki

      Odin disagrees with your assertion

      July 24, 2014 at 12:52 pm |
    • Doris

      It's interesting how Vic protects the Lord with little crosses in this posts.

      I imagine he used to lather up his TV set with garlic whenever Charmed came on.

      July 24, 2014 at 1:41 pm |
    • evolveddna

      Vic..Millions of starving children in many parts of the world are so happy to die with that knowledge.

      July 24, 2014 at 8:35 pm |
  15. MidwestKen

    This good news!

    While I disagree with her beliefs, I applaud her strength and the larger struggle for freedoms of conscience.

    July 24, 2014 at 11:45 am |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      Very true. And it only took five root posts for Topher to slag Catholics. Very "Christian" of him, I'd say...

      July 24, 2014 at 12:25 pm |
  16. zhilla1980wasp

    i truly don't understand this country. i mean seriously and i grew up here.

    1) christian lady in a muslim country is assigned to death and the christians do everything they can to bring her to america.

    2) children attempting to escape poverty stricken dangerous countries, that it upon themselves to make a very dangerous journey to get to americna and the first thing they see are christians protesting and demanding america send them back.

    ummm where does this even make logical sense to you people.

    July 24, 2014 at 11:41 am |
    • LaBella

      It doesn't. And the rabid looks on their faces is nothing short of chilling.

      July 24, 2014 at 11:47 am |
    • MidwestKen

      Do you mean other than 1) it is religious persecution and 2) it is government enforced?

      July 24, 2014 at 11:54 am |
      • zhilla1980wasp

        how about
        1) those kids live in war zones due to the drug trade.
        2) there are thousands of children dying in south america; so is one woman's life more important to christians than that of children?
        3) why be so "loving" to one woman that's christian, yet so hateful to groups of christians anting to come here?

        July 24, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
  17. Chris

    Good news!

    What about Pastor Abedini? He has been in prison for too long now.

    July 24, 2014 at 11:16 am |
    • noahsdadtopher

      I hear it's almost 2 years now.

      July 24, 2014 at 11:18 am |
    • Chris

      Pastor Abedini's imprisonment is unconscionable and he has been beaten badly with no proper medical attention.

      He needs to be free and so does Bae and many other nameless Christians who are persecuted for their faith.

      Stop persecuting people for their religious belief! Stop killing each other!

      July 24, 2014 at 11:21 am |
      • igaftr

        Perhaps you should tell christians the same thing...they are also guilty...many times over.

        July 24, 2014 at 11:34 am |
      • fortheloveofellipsis

        And do you think the same protection should be offered for those of other faiths? Or are you only concerned about your team?...

        July 24, 2014 at 12:26 pm |
      • evolveddna

        Chris..Yes if belief on all sides was missing what a more peaceful world it would be.

        July 24, 2014 at 8:41 pm |
    • rogerthat2014

      If you travel to another country to sell your version of meth, don't expect the local cartel to welcome you with open arms.

      July 24, 2014 at 2:37 pm |
  18. noahsdadtopher

    Great news.

    Now the question is ... is she Christian or Catholic?

    July 24, 2014 at 10:53 am |
    • igaftr

      Many would tell you they are all both christian religions, so a moot question. Just because you don't think catholics are christians only matters to you. Why it matters to you is a better question you should ask yourself.

      July 24, 2014 at 10:56 am |
      • noahsdadtopher

        Then "many" would not understand the differences or know that both sides consider the other anathema. And why it matters ... depends on in what context you are asking. Are you asking why it matters that Catholics and Christians differ or why am I asking in the case of this family.

        July 24, 2014 at 11:01 am |
        • igaftr

          "Then "many" would not understand the differences or know that both sides consider the other anathema"

          No...I am one of the many, and I understand your viewpoint, simply disagree with it as it is simply a difference in the interpretation of the same book. Considering every single person who interprets it, sees it differently, the point is moot...a distinction without a difference.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:09 am |
        • noahsdadtopher

          I see. But you do understand that either the Christian "interpretation" is right, the Catholic "interpretation" is right, or neither of us are. And the differences between the two is vastly important; i.e., the difference in whether one goes to Heaven or Hell.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:16 am |
        • joey3467

          Catholics are Christian. Do they believe Jesus died for their sins? Yes. Therefore they are Christians, everything else is just window dressing.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:20 am |
        • noahsdadtopher

          To say the most essential Christian doctrine is "window dressing" is insulting. And shows you have no idea what it means.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:22 am |
        • joey3467

          The most important thing is to believe that Jesus died for your sins, that is what gets you into heaven according to the bible. Everything other than that is just window dressing.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:24 am |
        • joey3467

          Also, Tohper, just so you know telling Catholics that they aren't Christians is insulting.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:26 am |
        • doobzz

          That would be neither.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:28 am |
        • noahsdadtopher

          joey3467

          "The most important thing is to believe that Jesus died for your sins, that is what gets you into heaven according to the bible."

          Nope. Belief doesn't get you into heaven.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:29 am |
        • joey3467

          That is the first I have heard that believing Jesus died for you sins wasn't important. Are you not the one who is always saying that without believing in Jesus you can't go to heaven? You also always claim that good deeds can't get you into heaven so I guess you have changed your mind and decided that Heaven doesn't exist?

          July 24, 2014 at 11:41 am |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          @CHRIS-topher: ummmm according to your jesus, belief is all you need to get in.....well that and ask for all your sins to be forgiven on your deathbed.

          he even said those that perform actions or stand on a soapbox preaching have recieved their rewards already.

          let's not forget jesus also wants you poor, seeing compared to people elsewhere in history even the poorest person today has more wealth than the poor back in history.

          plus i loe how jesus will bring back hitler, mao, stalin, the native americans, ghangis khan, vlad the impaler.........along with all their victims. all total 10 trillion humans, then ki11 the ones he doesn't like...............again. lmao

          why even bother bringing them all back to life anyhow? why not just leave the dead alone and deal with the living?

          July 24, 2014 at 11:48 am |
        • snuffleupagus

          The probem, Topher, is WHICH christian group is right, eh? Baptists, Lutherans, Anabaptist, and all the others. out there who say the same thing about your group., or any other christian who isn't in with them. Truly funny that all say the same thing about each other. What is a true christian anyway?

          July 24, 2014 at 11:50 am |
        • igaftr

          topher
          You do realize that it is only christians arguing with other christians and all of them think they are right.
          Froom my standpoint, you are all the same.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:52 am |
        • joey3467

          Topher, could you also please explain to me why John 3:16 is wrong? Assuming you are correct and belief in Jesus doesn't get you into heaven it seems that the bible is wrong in several places.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:02 pm |
        • alakhtal

          Mariam Yehya Ibrahim ain’t Christian alas she’s a golddigger.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:05 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          joey3467

          "That is the first I have heard that believing Jesus died for you sins wasn't important."

          I didn't say that at all. Please don't misrepresent what I said. Believing in Christ is very important. But the Bible tells us that even the demons believe in Christ. But they aren't going to Heaven.

          "Are you not the one who is always saying that without believing in Jesus you can't go to heaven?"

          Without Christ you won't go to Heaven, that's true. But just believing isn't how you get in.

          "You also always claim that good deeds can't get you into heaven so I guess you have changed your mind and decided that Heaven doesn't exist?"

          True, good deeds don't get you in, either. Having sinned, we are already corrupt, thus rendering our works corrupt also. It would be kind of like saying you got a nice gift from Hitler. You wouldn't want anything, no matter how nice, from a man like that.

          Are you interested in knowing what the Bible says about who goes to Heaven?

          July 24, 2014 at 12:03 pm |
        • MidwestKen

          Perhaps one way to lok at it is that both groups try to love God and love their neighbor, but differ on the *best* way to do that.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:07 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          joey3467

          "Topher, could you also please explain to me why John 3:16 is wrong?"

          I don't believe it is wrong. Would you care to explain why YOU think it is?

          "Assuming you are correct and belief in Jesus doesn't get you into heaven it seems that the bible is wrong in several places."

          Nope. Read it again.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:10 pm |
        • LaBella

          alakhtal
          "Mariam Yehya Ibrahim ain’t Christian alas she’s a golddigger."
          She was a wealthy woman in her own right before marrying her husband; she owns property and shopping malls is Sudan.

          So, no.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:10 pm |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          hey, my family recieved a very nice grandfather clock from hitler. it even had a name plate on the bottom thanking us for all our hard work.

          nah i'm serious, we really did.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • joey3467

          Exactly, the most important thing is to believe in Jesus. After that it is all a matter of opinion. Also, I have read the bible and am not the least bit interested in spending eternity with a mass murdering psychopath, namely god.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:15 pm |
        • joey3467

          For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

          Here is John 3:16 please explain why it doesn't mean exactly what it says. It clearly states that whoever believes in Jesus will go to heaven. I see no other conditions stipulated. If there is another part of the bible where other criteria are laid out then that would seem to be a contradiction to me.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:19 pm |
        • igaftr

          "But you do understand that either the Christian "interpretation" is right, the Catholic "interpretation" is right, or neither of us are."

          Which do you think is most likely...you are right, they are right, neither is right?
          Overwhelming neither of you are likley right considering the myriad other possibilities.

          Besides, everyone know you can't get into Valhalla if you don't die in glorious battle.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:35 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          joey3467

          "Also, I have read the bible and am not the least bit interested in spending eternity with a mass murdering psychopath, namely god."

          "Here is John 3:16 please explain why it doesn't mean exactly what it says."

          So which is it? Are you interested or not? If not, I'll talk with someone else.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:53 pm |
        • joey3467

          I am interested in your take on the issue, as I like to see how you will rationalize it. I am not the least bit interested in a bible lesson from Topher, however. I view the Christian god as a mass murdering psychopath. I base my view of god on what the bible says god has done. Nothing you say is going to change my opinion on god. I also find the entire concept of letting someone else take your punishment to be completely and utterly immoral and thus will never be a Christian.

          July 24, 2014 at 1:01 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          Fair enough. Have a good one.

          July 24, 2014 at 1:02 pm |
        • joey3467

          I am honestly interested in why you think that believing Jesus died for the sins of mankind isn't the most important part of being a Christian. Is there something more important than that?

          July 24, 2014 at 1:10 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          joey3467

          God's grace is more important. But He won't give you that grace without believing in Christ. The problem is it's more complicated than that. There's more to it that just believing. For instance, here's the quote about the demons I mentioned earlier.

          "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!" James 2:19

          July 24, 2014 at 1:14 pm |
        • G to the T

          I think you create a false dicotomy:
          "But you do understand that either the Christian "interpretation" is right, the Catholic "interpretation" is right, or neither of us are"

          I believe a more correct label (if you must label) would be a variety of Protestent Christian interpretations vs. the Catholic Christian interpretation. And don't forget the Orthodox churches, LDS, Jehova Witnesses, etc. There is much more variety in "christian" thought than I think you are allowing for.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:20 pm |
    • Alias

      And if she answers wrong, are you going to want to send her back?

      July 24, 2014 at 11:01 am |
      • noahsdadtopher

        Of course not! I'm glad she's finally safe.

        July 24, 2014 at 11:05 am |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          I don't buy it, bub. Why bring it up otherwise? Or is it you just being an anti-Catholic bigot again?...

          July 24, 2014 at 12:34 pm |
    • LaBella

      Catholics ARE Christian.
      I understand that you feel they aren't, but nonetheless, they are. Your definition of what defines a Christian is your own.

      July 24, 2014 at 11:24 am |
      • noahsdadtopher

        Not really. The Bible tells us who is a Christian. I just align my beliefs with that.

        July 24, 2014 at 11:32 am |
        • LaBella

          Yes, really. They follow the same Bible.
          Sorry.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:39 am |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          So which one of the 42,000 different Christian denominations is the "right" one? Topher apparently has found the needle in the haystack, or rather, the hay in the needle stack, please do share your enlightened choice and explain why it is better than the other 900 million people who follow a different version.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:59 am |
        • Alias

          Topher, Dalahast, and a few others are actually comical in the way they think they are right about the bible and everyone else is wrong – and going to hell. Fortunately, their god loves arrogance.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:13 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          Funny, skippy, that I haven't seen any scriptural text that delved into the difference between "Christian"(tm) and "Catholic"(tm)...

          July 24, 2014 at 12:29 pm |
      • midwest rail

        Leave it to topher to turn a feel good story around into his pet crusade against Catholics. Sad.

        July 24, 2014 at 11:32 am |
        • noahsdadtopher

          That wasn't my intention. And I'm not crusading against Catholics. I'm just asking because the story calls her a Christian but then she is hanging out with the Pope. I was just wondering why.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:35 am |
        • In Santa We Trust

          topher
          "... calls her a Christian but then she is hanging out with the Pope. I was just wondering why."

          Because catholics are christians – same as Mormons, Protestants, Orthodox, etc

          July 24, 2014 at 11:39 am |
        • LaBella

          Topher, she was sentenced to death because of her Christianity. Whether her denomination of Christianity is Catholicism matters only to the people who erroneously thinks Catholics aren't Christians.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:42 am |
        • midwest rail

          " That wasn't my intention."
          Then why ask the question ? This woman has barely caught her breath after living under a death sentence for how long ? And you can't wait to begin tap dancing on the grave of her soul in case she doesn't meet your specifications of who is a Christian or not. Pathetic.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:44 am |
        • noahsdadtopher

          Catholicism is not a denomination. It's its own religion.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:04 pm |
        • alakhtal

          Mariam Yehya Ibrahim ain’t Christian alas she’s a golddigger.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:15 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          midwest rail

          "Then why ask the question ?"

          I was just curious. Excuse me for asking questions.

          "And you can't wait to begin tap dancing on the grave of her soul in case she doesn't meet your specifications of who is a Christian or not. Pathetic."

          Ridiculous. And you know it. I don't know what her faith statement is, that's why I asked. And it's not "my" specifications. It's the Bible's. And I bet whether Christian or Catholic, she'd understand and appreciate my concern for her soul, just as I'm concerned for yours.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:08 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          topher,
          Do you consider Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, etc. different religions or different denominations of protestantism?

          July 24, 2014 at 12:09 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          In Santa We Trust

          "Do you consider Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, etc. different religions or different denominations of protestantism?"

          Those specific three are denominations.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:12 pm |
        • LaBella

          Catholicism is a denomination of the Christian Church.
          The same as Protestantism.
          Sorry, T. Wrong again.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:14 pm |
        • midwest rail

          " she'd understand and appreciate my concern for her soul, "
          Absolute hogwash, and YOU know it. This is simply you doing what Theo always does, preaching from a self constructed pedestal of faux righteousness, and excusing your despi.cable behavior as biblical. What a sad excuse for a human being.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:18 pm |
        • joey3467

          It was totally your intention, Topher, and lying about it now doesn't fool anyone. Calling Catholics not Christian somehow makes you feel superior to them it seems, and I believe this is why you do it, also it makes you look like a complete jerk.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:26 pm |
    • doobzz

      What a shit stirring question.

      July 24, 2014 at 11:30 am |
      • LaBella

        I agree. It was designed to flame.

        July 24, 2014 at 11:43 am |
        • doobzz

          That's Topher for you.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:07 pm |
      • igaftr

        It is like an argument in a white room which color the room is.

        It's egg shell white, it's off white, it's ceiling white...as if it matters.

        July 24, 2014 at 12:38 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          Actually, I picture it more as the religious equivalent of Groucho Marx asking if you still beat your wife. It's one thing to simply be discussing minutiae, quite another to phrase an attack in the form of an obviously-loaded question...

          July 24, 2014 at 1:07 pm |
        • doobzz

          LOL, I love that. May I use it?

          July 24, 2014 at 2:57 pm |
    • In Santa We Trust

      Protestant or Catholic you mean. Christian covers those and more.

      July 24, 2014 at 11:37 am |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      "Now the question is ... is she Christian or Catholic?"

      Ah, the tragic consequences of snorting too much John Hagee...

      July 24, 2014 at 12:47 pm |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Cute topher...you think you're the expert on who qualifies as a Christian and who doesn't...such arrogance coming from someone who think the earth is only 6000 years old while denying the overwhelming, peer-reviewed evidence proving that wrong but alas this is about whether in reality Catholics qualify as Christians. To be sure I went to a reliable source and sure enough they are:
      http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations/denominations_beliefs.htm

      July 24, 2014 at 12:55 pm |
      • joey3467

        Topher has probably never set foot in a Catholic Chruch and thus he most likely has no idea what Catholics believe. However, one day his preacher told him Catholics aren't Christians and so he believes it now. Pretty sad really.

        July 24, 2014 at 1:03 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          I think if we get him mad enough he'll spew some "wh()re of Babylon" stuff straight from John Hagee...

          July 24, 2014 at 1:09 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          Actually, I attended a Catholic church when I was in college. I just didn't understand at the time what they taught.

          July 24, 2014 at 1:16 pm |
        • joey3467

          Where did you learn what Catholics believe? Hopefully from a Catholic otherwise you probably only learned what someone else thinks Catholics believe.

          July 24, 2014 at 1:38 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          From both. Including their own catechisms.

          Again, it's not like I hate Catholics. I just disagree with them. Though some of you want to twist my words to make it look bad.

          July 24, 2014 at 1:41 pm |
        • joey3467

          Then what exactly makes them not Christians in your opinion?

          July 24, 2014 at 1:45 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          Well, the question is whether your theology agrees with what the Bible says. And while there are many things the Catholics teach that aren't in the Bible, ultimately the question is whether their beliefs puts them within the realm of orthodoxy. They are outside of that. For the same reasons a Baptist and a Lutheran are brothers in Christ (we agree on the important issues) the Baptist and Catholics are not brothers.

          July 24, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
        • joey3467

          What do they teach that goes against the bible, please be as specific as possible.

          July 24, 2014 at 2:38 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          Going to a priest to be a mediator, praying to anyone but Christ, the office of the Pope, their theology on the Lord's Supper, works righteousness, requiring the sacraments, who is a saint, etc. ...

          But the biggest one is the difference between imputed and infused righteousness.

          July 24, 2014 at 2:55 pm |
    • tallulah131

      Grow up, topher. Really. This woman suffered for her faith. What have you ever done, beyond deriding the beliefs of others (or lack thereof) simply because they are not the same as your own?

      July 24, 2014 at 1:36 pm |
      • noahsdadtopher

        I have nothing against this woman, though some here would like to make it look that way. And I haven't derided anyone.

        July 24, 2014 at 1:39 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Skip the hypocrisy! You are the one who seems to have issue here when you poise the question of whether she is Catholic (Christian regardless of what you may fool yourself to believe) or Christian by your own inept definition!!
          The only difference between you and a Catholic or you and a JW or Mormon or any other denomination not the same as yours if the interpretation of the bible.
          The only definition that matters in the real world is the one here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/christian
          By that definition, Catholics are Christian.

          July 24, 2014 at 2:41 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          TruthPrevails1

          Because Merriam-Webster has more authority on Christianity than the Bible?

          July 24, 2014 at 2:59 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Yes topher, it does! The bible doesn't define words, it merely tells stories. The definitions we use in the REAL world (not the fantasy one you reside in) are what matter. The only difference between you and a Catholic is how you interpret the bible.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:16 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          1. The Bible most definitely defines who a Christian is.
          2. So I'm supposed to trust modern, fallible man's word over an eternal, infallible God's? Ridiculous.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:28 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Given that saying it is gods infallible word is merely an opinion, I would say you do the honest thing and go by what the rest of normal people do and use a proper book. Catholics are Christian, just like you and regardless of wha you may think your opinion doesn't change that.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:31 pm |
        • igaftr

          "1. The Bible most definitely defines who a Christian is."

          Funny, but again, it is open to interpretation.
          Since you can justify just about any action through the bible, either to kill, or not to kill, to enslave or not enslave...it is all in how it is interpreted, so nothing but YOUR opinion, and perhaps some who agree with you. Problem is, that no one can claim they are right.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:33 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          My opinion may or may not change that. I side with the Bible and history on the subject. Read up on the Reformation. I wish they would align themselves with the Bible more. Not for myself, but so that they can be saved. There are plenty of Catholics who have done just that. Those who hold to the teaching of the Catholic Church are outside of orthodoxy, which means their beliefs make them outside of Christianity. And nothing you say changes that.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:37 pm |
        • joey3467

          In reality, Topher, nothing you say will change the fact that it is only nut jobs such as yourself that think Catholic's aren't Christian. You are so stuck in your own stupidity that you even refuse to consider that you just might be wrong. Perhaps you aren't a real Christian and all the Catholics are. And who are you to decide what is a big deal to god and what isn't? Maybe what you view as a small thing is actually a huge thing that results in you spending eternity with me in hell.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:43 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Sorry topher, that is a very small, narrow-minded world you reside in. The bible is not an authority on anything and has been shown to be wrong many times. You are being intellectually dishonest.
          You've been given accurate information and you still refuse to accept it...nothing quite as closed-minded as that. You are a HUGE part of the problem with the country and a HUGE part of why the country is falling behind on so many of the important issues...people like you hold society back and are a blemish on it. Remain ignorant if you wish but please don't drag others with you...we want our species to survive, not doom itself as your ilk is helping to ensure happens.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:44 pm |
        • igaftr

          Again...more of YOUR opinion.
          I am certain that I could get some christians to read your posts and give THEIR reasons you are not a christian either.

          Why do you need to label everything anyway...your original post was moot, each of the following ones were just as moot...in your opinion, they are not christians...so what?
          Aren't you supposed to be minding yourself...how does their being christian or not effect you anyway?

          July 24, 2014 at 3:45 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          joey3467

          "In reality, Topher, nothing you say will change the fact that it is only nut jobs such as yourself that think Catholic's aren't Christian."

          Yep. All of us nutjob Christians.

          "You are so stuck in your own stupidity that you even refuse to consider that you just might be wrong. Perhaps you aren't a real Christian and all the Catholics are."

          Logical possibility. But since I have the Bible backing me up, I'm not too concerned.

          "And who are you to decide what is a big deal to god and what isn't?"

          I'm not. God is. And He revealed Himself through the Bible.

          "Maybe what you view as a small thing is actually a huge thing that results in you spending eternity with me in hell."

          I'd be happy to consider something if you gave me the topic and backed it up with some verses.

          July 24, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          TruthPrevails1

          "Sorry topher, that is a very small, narrow-minded world you reside in."

          That's because I'm on the narrow road.

          "The bible is not an authority on anything and has been shown to be wrong many times."

          The Bible is the authority on God and His standard. And NOTHING in it has been proven wrong.

          "You are a HUGE part of the problem with the country and a HUGE part of why the country is falling behind on so many of the important issues...people like you hold society back and are a blemish on it."

          What exactly have I done that has held society back?

          July 24, 2014 at 3:56 pm |
        • joey3467

          Topher, not all Christians are nutjobs, just the ones who think that Catholics aren't also Christian.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:01 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          igaftr

          "I am certain that I could get some christians to read your posts and give THEIR reasons you are not a christian either."

          Try me. We'll see if they are orthodox by their statement of faith.

          "Why do you need to label everything anyway...your original post was moot, each of the following ones were just as moot...in your opinion, they are not christians...so what?"

          It's just your opinion that it was moot ... funny since that is what you are complaining about against me. I wasn't trying to label anyone. I was just asking the question. And why does it matter if they are Christian? Because if they are not they face eternal torment. I don't want a single Catholic, atheist or agnostic to go to Hell. I care about every one of you. And most of you are rejecting Christ without any sort of understanding of what is being offered or who He is.

          "Aren't you supposed to be minding yourself...how does their being christian or not effect you anyway?"

          Minding myself? What verse is that? Because I want them to go to Heaven. That's all. And God commanded us to go out and preach the Gospel to every creature.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:01 pm |
        • igaftr

          "Because if they are not they face eternal torment"

          You really don't get it. That is YOUR OPINION once again.

          It is just as possible that there is a god, who is nothing like your god, but hates it when people worship the wrong gods, and will torture YOU for eternity for worshipping the wrong god. There is just as much credbile evidence for this as there is for your stroy book.

          The biggest problem here is that you fail to recognize the FACT that you most likely are wrong, since there are an infinite number of other possiblities. The odds that you have it exactly right is one in infinity....not good odds to claim you are right.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:18 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          igaftr

          "You really don't get it. That is YOUR OPINION once again."

          Not an opinion at all. It aligns with God's word.

          "It is just as possible that there is a god, who is nothing like your god, but hates it when people worship the wrong gods, and will torture YOU for eternity for worshipping the wrong god. There is just as much credbile evidence for this as there is for your stroy book."

          No. All the evidence points to the Bible being correct. There are NO other gods.

          "The biggest problem here is that you fail to recognize the FACT that you most likely are wrong, since there are an infinite number of other possiblities. The odds that you have it exactly right is one in infinity....not good odds to claim you are right."

          FACT ... most likely. Not much confidence there. You just want to argue with me. You'd bicker if I said Obama is president. It's just a waste of time.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:22 pm |
        • igaftr

          Topher
          I thought that Jesus died for our sins, so why would anyone go to hell?

          July 24, 2014 at 4:31 pm |
        • igaftr

          "Not an opinion at all. It aligns with God's word."

          That just might be true...if only we had something like that...all I see is the works of men that CLAIM it to be effected in some way by god, but no one has ever shown that to be true, nor can show any god at all to exist,so that is very presumptive of you.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:33 pm |
        • igaftr

          "No. All the evidence points to the Bible being correct. There are NO other gods"

          What evidence...there is none.

          YOUR god sais there are other gods...thou shalt have no OTHER GODS before me...not idols, not false gods....no OTHER GODS...why would he have warned you not to worship them before him if they aren't there.
          Ancient Jews worshipped your god AND HIS WIFE...did he divorce?

          July 24, 2014 at 4:36 pm |
        • Alias

          It is my opinion that on some level Topher knows there are good resons to doubt his interpretation of the bible.
          That is why he will be making sure no one offers any other opinions to his child.

          July 24, 2014 at 4:36 pm |
        • igaftr

          " most likely. Not much confidence there"

          Wrong again... I simply acknowledge the one, as in one in infinity. one in infinity is not much, but is there

          July 24, 2014 at 4:38 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          igaftr

          "I thought that Jesus died for our sins, so why would anyone go to hell?"

          Because the results of what He did are only offered to those who want it. If you don't want it He'll simply give you what you deserve. The question is, "Do you want it?"

          July 24, 2014 at 4:52 pm |
        • igaftr

          Well, if it could be shown to be true, who would NOT want it...that is just silly...and if it is a sin to NOT accept the stories and you man-god, then isn't that also a sin he died for?...why would his ego get in the way?

          What if i refuse this alleged "gift" ( with all the strings attached) for moral reason, such as I would not allow another to take my punishment...he's going to torture me forever for having moraltiy, where christianity has none?

          July 24, 2014 at 5:02 pm |
        • noahsdadtopher

          igaftr

          "Well, if it could be shown to be true, who would NOT want it...that is just silly.."

          I agree. But you can read a comment on this very board from earlier today who says just that.

          "What if i refuse this alleged "gift" ( with all the strings attached) for moral reason, such as I would not allow another to take my punishment...he's going to torture me forever for having moraltiy, where christianity has none?"

          He's going to punish you for breaking His laws. Please don't make the mistake that you have more morality than God. He's not only the standard for morality, He IS morality. Rejecting His offer does not somehow make you moral. Because you've sinned and deserve punishment, there's no escaping the justice of the good Judge. The only thing you can do at this point is pay the fine yourself (for eternity) or allow Him to have paid it for you. His work is already done. And if you're interested, I'd be happy to show you from Scripture how you can receive that gift.

          July 24, 2014 at 5:17 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          I had a friend of mine who is ordained look over tophers post and she has made it clear that he is not acting very Christian.

          The bible can't be confirmed as being anything ore than the word of man, to claim it is anything more is dishonest. You cause harm to society and are detrimental because you deny the evidence in lieu of the bible (no evidence to support it).

          July 24, 2014 at 5:33 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Do Catholics accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour?
      Then they are Christians.

      "Is she a musician or a pianist?"

      July 24, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
      • noahsdadtopher

        Jesus Christ doesn't need my, yours, a Catholic's or anyone else's acceptance. We need His.

        July 24, 2014 at 5:23 pm |
        • awanderingscot

          Topher, no offense here brother, but you are debating theology with people who are spiritually dead

          July 25, 2014 at 12:40 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          What I'm saying is that a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.
          Whether you think that other sects are heretical, teaching false doctrine or whatever has no bearing on whether the denominations are indeed Christian.
          If a religion teaches the Bible (no matter if they've additional books from which they draw inspiration) and requires that their adherents submit to the Lord and profess Christ as their salvation – then they are Christian.

          Scot – do you have another definition of what a Christian is?

          July 25, 2014 at 8:05 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          awanderingscot: You keep using the term spiritually dead as if it has any true meaning. Spirits can't be shown with evidence to exist, thus there is zero justification for them to be accepted, so as always your point is moot.
          If you don't like us speaking on things that you feel don't pertain to us, then might we suggest you stop talking about scientific things such as EVOLUTION-you know that doesn't meld with your love of the Incest story of the bible.
          You should stop insulting people and attempt to be a better rep for your ilk...people like you are the reason people are walking away...thank you for benefiting the rational side of humanity....you serve us well.

          July 25, 2014 at 8:26 am |
      • neverbeenhappieratheist

        I once saw Tommy Lee play a keyboard with no pants on and now I have pianist envy...

        July 24, 2014 at 5:29 pm |
    • evolveddna

      Noahsdaugter.. you illuminate the problem with religion in this one comment.....excellent.

      July 24, 2014 at 8:44 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        He does.
        On a side note...Noah is topher's newborn son, thus the reason for his alias.

        July 25, 2014 at 8:28 am |
  19. Dyslexic doG

    glad she's safe.

    July 24, 2014 at 10:51 am |
    • LaBella

      So am I. And I'm sure her husband is overjoyed.

      July 24, 2014 at 11:30 am |
  20. Lucifer's Evil Twin

    Good for her... now she can live in the United States and be free to persecute non-Christians... the circle of life

    July 24, 2014 at 10:45 am |
    • Alias

      This is a feel good story.
      Can we leave the harsh reality out of it and embrace the warm fuzzies for at least a little while?

      July 24, 2014 at 10:49 am |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        I said, "Good for her" ... How can I be 'Evil' if I'm nice all of the time?

        July 24, 2014 at 10:52 am |
        • Alias

          Sometimes you have to let them get comfy while the evil builds up; then slap them with it all at once.
          Rookie.

          July 24, 2014 at 10:59 am |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          I can't believe you just called me a rookie...LOL

          July 24, 2014 at 11:05 am |
        • Alias

          The difference between a Democrat and a Republican:
          the Democrats steal often, but not very much.
          Republicans don't steal often, but they steal a lot when they do.
          To truely master evil you must master both techniques.

          July 24, 2014 at 11:16 am |
        • Løki

          "To truely master evil you must master both techniques" Noted... except that I am a Libertarian

          July 24, 2014 at 12:32 pm |
        • Alias

          Ah, grasshopper is libertarian.
          If you want to truely be deserving of the name you must be part friend, part enemy, part conservative, part liberal, part water buffalo and part bagder. Those last 2 can be some seriously nasty animals.

          July 24, 2014 at 1:27 pm |
        • Løki

          "part friend, part enemy, part conservative, part liberal, part water buffalo and part badger" that's funny... I got those covered

          July 24, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        Maybe I'll switch to 'Løki' for a while, so that I can continue to be a PIA, but I don't have to be so Evil, LOL

        July 24, 2014 at 11:00 am |
    • zhilla1980wasp

      i feel sorry for her. yeah she made it to america; however now she will experience real hatefullness. i think after a few years she will elave and volenteer for the gilatine on her own after living here for a while. lol

      July 24, 2014 at 11:55 am |
    • alakhtal

      Mariam Yehya Ibrahim ain’t Christian alas she’s a golddigger.

      July 24, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
      • LaBella

        Alas, you're wrong.

        July 24, 2014 at 12:19 pm |
      • fortheloveofellipsis

        Oh, I get it. You're the brother who wanted her executed in order to get your grubbies on her property.

        Makes perfect sense now...

        July 24, 2014 at 12:22 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Greed and Christianity tend to go hand in hand...just ask Ken Ham and Pat Robertson, although I think you're wrong about this lady.

        July 24, 2014 at 12:24 pm |
      • Løki

        Chick held on to her christian convictions even though it potentially could have led to her death... that makes her more like a christian than you facebook troll

        July 24, 2014 at 12:41 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          My read is that alakhtal is an Islamist who dropped in to slander Ms. Ibrahim. In other words, a sore loser...

          July 24, 2014 at 12:44 pm |
        • LaBella

          Yep.

          July 24, 2014 at 12:53 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.