July 25th, 2014
10:39 AM ET

Does Jonah's tomb signal the death of Christianity in Iraq?

Opinion by Joel S. Baden and Candida Moss, Special to CNN

(CNN) - The destructive force of  the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, the militant Sunni movement, is epitomized in a video released Thursday of ISIS members smashing a tomb in Mosul, Iraq.

The tomb is traditionally thought to be the burial place of the prophet Jonah, a holy site for Christians and many Muslims.

Mosul, the second-largest city in Iraq, is built on and adjacent to the ancient Assyrian city of Nineveh, the setting for the biblical book of Jonah and once the most powerful capital of the ancient world.

Indeed, for most people familiar with the Bible, Nineveh is inseparable from the figure of Jonah.

In Christian tradition, the story of Jonah is an important one. Jonah’s descent into the depths in the belly of the great fish and subsequent triumphant prophetic mission to Nineveh is seen as a reference to and prototype of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

The destruction of his tomb in Mosul is therefore a direct assault on Christian faith, and on one of the few physical traces of that faith remaining in Iraq.

Despite its acknowledged antiquity, however, it is a virtual certainty that the tomb destroyed by ISIS was not that of the biblical prophet.

His purported tomb was in a mosque dating back to the time of the Muslim conquest in the middle of the first millennium. The mosque, known as the Mosque of the Prophet Yunus (Arabic for Jonah), was built on an even earlier Christian church that stood on the spot.

Officials: ISIS blows up Jonah's tomb in Iraq

It’s likely that the association of the site with Jonah’s burial goes back to the early Christian period when the practice of linking geographical features with biblical figures was all the rage. (See: Rachel’s Tomb in Bethlehem, David’s Tomb in Jerusalem, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, etc.)

Jewish tradition suggests that Jonah returned to his hometown of Gath-Hepher after his mission to Nineveh (as we read in the book 3 Maccabees, from around the first century B.C.).

This was certainly the belief held by the church father Jerome, and was local tradition in Gath-Hepher in the 12th century and remains so today.

(Perhaps less likely is the rabbinic claim that his experience in the belly of the great fish was so terrible that God granted Jonah a rare exemption from the travails of death and he went up to heaven alive.)

In the end, speculations about the actual location of Jonah’s burial are probably moot, as virtually all scholars agree that the book is a work of pure fiction - is perhaps even a comedic novella of sorts - and that it is quite likely to have been written around the fifth century B.C., around 200 years after the city of Nineveh was destroyed.

But it is not the historical reality that is at stake in Mosul today.

The destruction of Jonah’s tomb was not an attack on archaeology. It was an attack on both those Christians living in Iraq today and on the rich, if little-known, Christian heritage of the region.

When people think of ancient Christianity, they don’t ordinarily think of Iraq. But the Christian communities there are among the oldest in the world.

According to church tradition, Christianity was introduced to the region by the Apostles Thomas and Thaddeus. These stories may be legendary, but by the second century we have references to Christian converts with names associated with the region and later histories refer to the persecution of Christians in Iraq in the fourth century. The Mar Behnam Monastery, for example, is believed to go back to the fourth century.

In the past two millennia, Iraq has been a center for Christian theological enquiry, learning and devotion. Important monasteries were built there in the sixth and seventh centuries, and various forms of ancient Christianity that had died out elsewhere persisted in Iraq into the 21st century.

Mar Mattai, which is to the southeast of Mosul and is maintained by the Syriac Orthodox Church, became one of the most important Christian monasteries by the eighth century, and was particularly renowned for its library.

The significance of Christianity in Iraq extends beyond even religion.

It is likely that Syriac monks were partly responsible for the preservation of Greek philosophical, medical and scientific texts by translating them into Syriac and Arabic. A ninth-century Syriac patriarch named Timothy wrote that the best Syriac manuscripts of Greek writers were to be found at Mar Mattai.

All that has been erased in a matter of days.

Last week, ISIS reportedly issued an ultimatum to Christians that they must convert to Islam, flee or face the sword. Earlier this month ISIS had allowed Christians to pay a non-Muslim tax known as jizya. On July 17, Christians were notified that jizya was no longer an option. They must now convert, flee or die.

Among the last Christians to leave the city were monks - residents of the ancient Mar Behnam Monastery - who left behind them 1,400 years of rich Christian tradition, as ISIS refused to let the monks take any of their precious relics with them.

Despite its antiquity and rich tradition, Christianity in Iraq is on the brink of eradication.

The heirs to those who first discovered the tomb of Jonah, and those who helped to keep Greek philosophy alive in the medieval period, are being ejected from their homes and from a land they have held sacred for centuries. This is the face and reality of Christian persecution.

Jonah was one of the earliest symbols of the resurrection for Christians. Will Christianity ever rise again in Iraq?

Joel S. Baden is professor of Hebrew Bible at Yale Divinity School. Candida Moss is a professor of New Testament and early Christianity at the University of Notre Dame. The views expressed in this column belong to Baden and Moss. 

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Belief • Bible • Christianity • Houses of worship • Iraq • Islam • Islamic law • Judaism • Middle East • Opinion • Religious violence • Sacred Spaces

soundoff (631 Responses)
  1. tv63

    No Jonah is not the symbol of resurrection of Christ! This reporter is so completely ignorant. Jonah is in the Old Testament not New. Duh! Old Testament has huge ties more to the Jewish people. Amazing how lazy reporters are these days with no accountability.

    August 17, 2014 at 2:46 pm |
  2. 19covenant19

    The Words of Jesus Christ has been proven TRUE

    –Scientifically & Mathematically–

    for all Nations on earth now.

    See it with your own eyes here to believe it.


    August 3, 2014 at 6:41 am |
    • jbhollen

      "The Words of Jesus Christ has been proven TRUE–Scientifically & Mathematically–for all Nations on earth now"

      And he provides better gas milage than anything in his class!

      August 3, 2014 at 7:38 am |
    • igaftr

      "The Words of Jesus Christ has been proven TRUE"

      Funny, but that is a lie. The ALLEGED words of Jesus cannot even be shown to have ever been spoken by him.

      Do you get brownie points from your god by posting lies?

      August 3, 2014 at 8:30 am |
  3. austin929

    @ zillawasp

    "you failed to answer why lucifer (a spirit) had jewels and gold when those thing don't exist in non-corporal form."

    I am not sure you know what heaven is llike now or the one Christ is preparing. Can you truly say "non corporal" with any certainty or know what is in heaven ? The thing is , heaven is a place where spirits are in a form or a glorified body, and there is in fact gold, and horses. ect.

    "you failed to answer when god made angels. " if you look a the prophetic reality of the bible, such as the passover Lamb, Christ, vs. the passover festival and Moses, you can answer questions using later scripture, because the Prophet is real. The Word was and will be eternal.

    "you failed to answer why your god has multiple personality disorder"
    Your accusation is simply not something for you to judge or complain about. Why was the person of Christ
    also The Angel of the Lord?

    your questioning could truly be without end. does it prove anything to you that you can ask a question?

    August 2, 2014 at 3:03 pm |
    • jbhollen

      More word salad. I have to believe that you are messing with everyone on purpose. It's seems kind of like "Sarah Palin butchers English" but more subtle. And by the way it's corporeal not corporal.

      August 2, 2014 at 3:21 pm |
    • zhilla1980wasp

      austin: i can prove many things from questioning, something most religious people fail to do.
      "your questioning could truly be without end. does it prove anything to you that you can ask a question?"

      guess what blind obedience got germany? two world wars that they lost.

      asking questions and seeking answers is how humainty escaped the "dark ages" which was the time in history that religion ruled.
      guess why it's called the "dark ages"? oh i forgot you wouldn't question things because you fear knowing something other than what your parents or preacher tell you to believe.

      the foot work i see most religious people complete on here should get them all on dancing with the stars because that leg work is nothing compared to all of you.

      -shrugs- what can i say, you choose to remain ignorant that is your choice; just keep the ignorance out of schools and government i would much like to avoid a repeat of the "dark ages."

      August 4, 2014 at 7:19 am |
  4. truth1914

    WAKE UP!!!
    Our world is not getting any better. Our world has continued to sink lower and lower from every aspect of life and the only way it will every truly get better is if there is divine intervention. (Revelation 11:18) 18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

    Mankind has had ample time and opportunity to grow morally and scientifically to have stopped all we suffer from on a daily basis and yet things are getting worse at an exponential rate. Mankind is slaughtering each other at an alarming rate in all aspects of life not just war. Although we produce more food than at anytime in our history more people are starving or don't have enough to eat each day. We are ruining the planet to the point that in years to come if it were to continue its ability to sustain life or the quality there of will be greatly challenged.

    His word says that in the end people will be killing each other in the streets earth wide (The Great Tribulation) and only then will mankind admit that God is the only one who has the right to tell his intelligent creation how they will live and take care of His planet.

    (Matthew 24:21, 22) . . .for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

    Please, I beg you all to wake up.

    August 1, 2014 at 9:13 am |
    • zhilla1980wasp

      1914: i am so happy you crazies don't have access to nuclear devices.
      one of you quacks just may believe the end is near and set it off.

      yeah things are sooooo much worse than they were back in history; i mean look around at all the death, slavery, war, immorality, prosecution of innocent religious people, and those evil gay people always trying to convert you. LMFAO.

      things are a lot better than they use to be, because right after the "dark ages"; you know the time period where religions ruled everything; came the "age of enlightenment" where we discovered science, art, literature. we stopped being scared of your boogieman and began thinking for ourselves.

      so now things aren't that bad, fox news just makes it appear that way so you will watch. lmfao

      August 1, 2014 at 9:24 am |
      • austin929

        " to those who destroy the earth"

        does that not include people who drive cars? and did God like nimrods tower?

        I am puzzled at the literal interpretation of "those who destroy the earth"! global warming? I would hesitate to say "no"

        August 1, 2014 at 8:34 pm |
    • kenmargo

      Forget about mankind, let's talk about the weather. Tornado's, twister's, flooding, earthquake's, hurricane's are all NATURAL disasters. Man has nothing to do with the weather. So we can stay awake 48 hours and the weather won't change. The weather (god) will kill more people quicker and in greater numbers than man. In short go suck coal.

      August 1, 2014 at 3:47 pm |
    • austin929

      " to those who destroy the earth"

      does that not include people who drive cars? and did God like nimrods tower?

      I am puzzled at the literal interpretation of "those who destroy the earth"! global warming? I would hesitate to say "no"

      Truth........what does destroy the earth mean? does it mean blow something up? i think it means pollute the streams, the oceans, waste the water table............ect. I think we all have to question if this means "worship the works of their hands" such as guns and cars.

      What if global warming is true? that verse would apply to cars. That God hates them.

      August 1, 2014 at 8:39 pm |
      • truth1914

        We cannot absolve ourselves from every form of everything that could harm the planet because we have to be able to function but we do what we can to reduce pollution and anything else we can to not contribute to an extreme the things that harm the earth. This scripture pertains more to greedy big business and those who contribute to the ruining of the earth from a moral standpoint.

        August 2, 2014 at 1:46 pm |
        • austin929

          thanks for your time. I do agree with that. but on the other hand the road is narrow. and people like John The Baptist, the apostles and the disciples, they lived during a more down to earth time where there weren't trains and cars and guns and i think we should be jealous of that.

          and I think we should seriously ask ourselves if we are called to be different. We don't need to be a friend of the world.

          I am not trying to teach you anything, but i am worried about this day and age and the consequences of the combustion engine.

          August 2, 2014 at 2:50 pm |
        • jbhollen

          Not having any modern technology or weapon's didn't seem to slow god down when it came to genocide or mass murder.

          August 2, 2014 at 2:55 pm |
        • austin929

          The nation of Israel was God's vehicle for atonement to enter the world , and so God was warring, on your behalf, for you for your relationship with Him. for that time period.

          and now the Holy Spirit was left here, and the war is over. The battle has been won!

          You are redeemed. It is satan who attacks men with souls to take them to his lair, and to persecute the seed of Abraham.

          All wars, since the time of Christ, have been Satanically inspired.

          August 2, 2014 at 3:10 pm |
  5. monica7c



    August 1, 2014 at 7:30 am |
  6. truth1914

    One way to find the one true religion that Jesus talked about is by looking at the love that they would express amongst themselves as a group but also how they would treat those that were not a part of their organization and they would do this in an outstanding way. They would NEVER participate in war.

    (John 15:13) . . .No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends.
    (John 13:34, 35) 34 I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

    (Matthew 26:52) . . .all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword. . .

    43 “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    August 1, 2014 at 6:40 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Oh my, are you that dense??? Lacking a few brain cells perhaps???

      We went through this with you and yet you still THINK you're making a valid point. Using the bible to defend any of the stories in it is CIR-CU-LAR REAS-ON-ING (spelled out that way so that may your slow level of learning can comprehend the BIG words). Stop using the book or anything that resorts back to it to defend it. It's no different than using Cinderella to defend mice turning in to coach men or pumpkins turning in to coaches. Both are fairy tales written by man (no evidence outside of the bible that is was divinely inspired). You are such a gullible fool...please get an education!!

      August 1, 2014 at 7:34 am |
    • jbhollen

      truth1914 – Christians began slaughtering pagans as soon as christianity was legalized in 315 CE and they have cut a bloody swath of carnage throughout history since killing millions. The crusades, the inquisitions, genocide of indigenous peoples, witches and heretics just to name a few victims. Murders, attempted murders and other violence at women's health clinics carries on the proud tradition. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't get all misty eyed at your declaration of Christian love.

      August 1, 2014 at 7:45 am |
      • truth1914

        Not true christianity

        August 1, 2014 at 8:39 am |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          1914: and who are you to dictate to god who is and isn't a "true christian"?

          do you have god's ear or something? you modern christians are always good for a laugh.

          August 1, 2014 at 9:26 am |
        • jbhollen

          Yes true Christianity. We are not talking about burning a few heretics at the stake or gunning down one or two doctors at women's health clinics. This is systematic violence throughout the ages that continues today in the name of your fluffy lord. It is scripturally endorsed. Just one of many examples is in Deuteronomy 13:6-10. As an atheist my wife, my brother or friend is scripturally bound to stone me to death. It is very explicit that this action is not metaphorical in any way. Without pity my wife, brother, etc. is to pick up and toss the first stone himself/herself. How you can be a scripture quoting Christian and not understand your own religions dogma and rules baffles me. You need to read the entire bible, not just what is predigested for you.

          August 1, 2014 at 10:00 am |
        • austin929

          truth 1914. the unbelievers have a huge reason not to ever admit what a true Christian would be like, they would have to discern the new testament, and admit there can be a true Christian. this would defeat their argument and persona.

          August 2, 2014 at 2:52 pm |
        • jbhollen

          What a steaming pile of word salad. It means absolutely nothing.

          August 2, 2014 at 3:01 pm |
        • austin929

          JB, though you need to admit something though. or learn something.

          the old testament claimed to have ordained prophets who would call the nation to war.

          The new testament had prophets, and the NEW COVENANT, has no ordained prophets to call any nation to war, BECAUSE IT ISNT ABOUT A NATION . Jesus Christ ordained the new law, to the entire world, and He Himself said" we will not fight because the kingdom is not of this world."

          and so to say that Christianity promotes war is an arrogant and deceptive lie of blatant ignorance.

          August 2, 2014 at 3:07 pm |
        • jbhollen

          So you are discounting the old law as no longer germane or applicable?

          August 2, 2014 at 3:26 pm |
        • austin929

          well, I think its like the supreme court where you have different articles.

          anyway, in morality Christ has not changed the law, but the punishment for the law has been amended and we are no longer bound by all the countless restrictions. And as far as Israel is concerned, and war, things have ABSOLUTELY CHANGED.

          The last prophet was John. And none of the new testament prophetes ordained war,, or received the direct revelation from God , because Jesus was the incarnated revelation of God, and he gave us the command to forgive.

          and the new testament examples are clear, they did not peruse and earthly kingdom, through any military means. Christ's work was finished. He died and resurrected , and Paul, a roman citizen, did not infiltrate the military.

          ALL the disciples and apostles who lived after Jesus died, had their lives threatened. They all remained obedient by example to the sacred calling of the gospel. There is no provision for war.

          All this Christian "America is God's providence" is just a cop out and justification for war.................. and is not a reaction to the biblical example of Christ likeness.

          August 2, 2014 at 3:55 pm |
        • truth1914

          True Christianity does not participate in war.

          (Matthew 26:52) . . .“Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.

          (Matthew 5:44) 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you. . .

          (Micah 4:1) . . .In the final part of the days. . .

          (Micah 4:3) 3 He will render judgment among many peoples And set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore.

          True Christianity is "no part of the world" they would die before they take the life of another human. They have no part in the politics of mankind. They love their earth wide brother so much that they will never take up arms against each other.

          They preach the message of Jesus Christ that the kingdom will take care of all mankind's troubles and do away with earthly governments. Matt. 6:9,10 "let thy kingdom come, thy will be done"

          August 2, 2014 at 7:35 pm |
        • jbhollen

          truth1914 – Are you really asserting that "True Christianity does not participate in war?". Are you high or just clueless? Christianity has been the cause of more wars than any other religion. I just looked up a specific period in history and counted 30 separate wars. What about the crusades? Christianity has cut a bloody swath through history like no other cause. And we are just discussing war here. We are not even touching on religious persecution and genocide. Your religion is murderous and it's book is obscene.

          August 2, 2014 at 8:07 pm |
        • truth1914

          Again not true Christianity. Catholic Church does not represent the true God. They are blood guilty.

          August 3, 2014 at 12:37 am |
        • jbhollen

          Lol. I forget that as one who worships the invisible and insubstantial, you can ensure none of the blood sticks to you personally because you hang with the "real" invisible god. One thing you did take a stand on however is that as "true Christians" you are able to pass judgement on others. You declared "They are blood guilty".

          August 3, 2014 at 1:22 am |
        • truth1914

          No the bible says they are. Not me.

          August 3, 2014 at 1:37 am |
        • jbhollen

          I could have sworn that I was reading your post, not scripture.

          August 3, 2014 at 1:47 am |
        • jbhollen

          Of course it does. It tells you whatever you need to hear.

          August 3, 2014 at 7:25 am |
        • truth1914

          so untrue.

          August 3, 2014 at 9:59 am |
        • jbhollen

          I know that "evidence" and "proof" are dirty words in your world, but I believe there is evidence that you can pull justification for just about any act out of that mish-mash of fables and myths you call scripture.

          August 3, 2014 at 10:24 am |
        • jbhollen

          Lol. So because you declare that the Catholic's invisible god isn't as nice as your invisible god, you can keep the blood from sticking to you because after all it's all their fault. At what point will this even become too ridiculous for you? At least you took one stand. As "true Christians" you are obviously in a position to judge others as you declare "They are blood guilty".

          August 3, 2014 at 1:45 am |
        • truth1914

          God and his word has judged them. False religions support of wars, abuse of children, not truly teaching people to love their neighbor, and many other atrocities that He will wipe them off the face of the earth. They have contributed to this age of spiritual darkness when they should have been a beacon of light.

          (Revelation 18:4, 5) 4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.

          August 3, 2014 at 9:57 am |
        • jbhollen

          Right. They are all bad people and you are righteous. Thank dog for you!

          August 3, 2014 at 10:17 am |
        • igaftr


          All religions are false...not one of them can show any evidence that they are true.
          Just because you want it to be so, and claim you follow truth, does not make it so. You follow belief, and the words of men.

          August 3, 2014 at 10:22 am |
  7. kenmargo

    Now that all this tremendous/important/significient piece of property has been destroyed. Either god/Jesus/allah/lord or somebody with biblical powers should show up and express how p1ssed off he/she/it is over this bombing. What's in the bible shouldn't matter. This bombing is new sh1t that needs to be addressed ASAP.

    July 30, 2014 at 6:45 pm |
    • LaBella

      I think this is reprehensible. Jonah is honored in Islam, as well.
      No respect at all.

      July 30, 2014 at 6:52 pm |
      • kenmargo

        Are you speaking of me or the bombers?

        July 30, 2014 at 7:10 pm |
        • LaBella

          The ones destroying the tomb.

          August 2, 2014 at 3:01 pm |
      • jbhollen

        Are you seriously put-out that Islam revere's Jonah? I can't tell if you are being sarcastic.

        July 30, 2014 at 8:19 pm |
        • LaBella

          Just wondering at the motivations behind it, since Islam a prophet.
          I find destroying the tombs or shrines of any faith to be equally disrespectful.
          I didn't like it when the Muslin zealots destroyed the Buddist tombs, either.
          I thought my post was self-explanatory, but apparently it wasn't.

          August 2, 2014 at 3:08 pm |
        • jbhollen

          No, it wasn't self explanatory and neither is this one "...since Islam a profit...?". "Muslin zealots destroyed Buddhist tombs...?" I don't know what you meant by the former but I assume you are referring to the Taliban destroying the Buddha's of Bamiyan in the later.

          August 2, 2014 at 3:41 pm |
        • LaBella

          I must need more coffee. That first spence should have read, " just wondered at the motivation, since Islam considers Jonah a prophet."

          August 2, 2014 at 3:10 pm |
        • LaBella

          The first sentence.
          *Drinks directly from coffeepot.*

          My kingdom for an edit button.

          August 2, 2014 at 3:26 pm |
        • LaBella

          What are you on about? It's ridiculous behavior to destroy things because they represent another religion. It's even more absurd when they destroy of symbol of their own religion. I can't be any more clear than that.

          August 2, 2014 at 4:05 pm |
        • jbhollen

          Ok. I could follow that thought.

          August 2, 2014 at 4:20 pm |
        • LaBella

          And I explained my mistake in sentence structure in the following two posts, which you conveniently ignored.

          August 2, 2014 at 4:07 pm |
        • jbhollen

          My apologies for being unable to keep up with your mistakes.

          August 2, 2014 at 4:21 pm |
        • LaBella

          Your apology at your lack of reading comprehension is accepted.

          August 2, 2014 at 4:23 pm |
        • jbhollen

          Your apology FOR your lack of reading comprehension is accepted, is the correct wording, not your apology AT your lack of reading comprehension. Why don't you go back and review your last several posts and see if you can spot all your other blunders as well.

          August 2, 2014 at 4:40 pm |
  8. Bob

    Since we've got Austin dumping steaming, stinking bible manure on us by the truckload from his Christian book of nasty AKA the bible, it's time to take a closer look at some of the horrid demands in there purportedly from his vicious, vengeant ass hole in the sky that he calls "god". From both foul testaments, and note the text following the quotes:

    Numbers 31:17-18
    17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
    18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

    1 Timothy 2:11
    "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."

    Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Leviticus 25
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
    46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

    Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

    And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

    So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.

    July 30, 2014 at 8:29 am |
  9. austin929


    which came first, ezekiel or genesis?

    technically, both books have been in the mind of Christ before the world began.

    what use would a non-coporal being (spirit) have need for material things? i.e. gold and jewels.
    none really. but humans are simply traders

    "how is it that gold and jewels existed when nothing else did?"
    because God put the elements in place first, and Christ saved the focal point, humans with souls, for last.

    "what i mean is angels would have to been created before the rest of creation for them to even get jealous of humans."

    yes , correct, Angels were created before Adam

    how is it that "jesus and god" were able to talk when the "jesus" spirit hadn't even been created yet?
    Jesus was in the beginning
    Genesis 1:26 ►

    Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image,

    OUR is plural. this is further revealed in the book of John

    ◄ John 1 ►
    Jesus is Creator

    The Word Became Flesh

    1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.

    Revelation 19:13 ►

    He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    "how can spirits have "talks"? much less private talks seeing nothing is physically blocking lucifer from listenning in?

    " share ideas and make plans." why would an all-knowing being need to make a plan with his self-son?
    wouldn't god already know what he planned to do and what the "jesus" spirit would say before he said it?

    again, it's just a delusion of human creation."

    Angels were that did not rebel are eternal and they do not go through the process of salvation. They look in on your growth and the glory of salvation is God's greatest gift. Angels rejoice, and the help you.

    Demons deceive you and they have a satanic plan in place from the time that Cain killed Abel, Satan who was created by Christ knew who Christ was when he fell and what the plan was. And so this is why you have fake stories that may have pre ceeded Christ. Diabolical mimicry.

    July 29, 2014 at 8:26 pm |
    • TruthPrevails1

      "both books have been in the mind of Christ before the world began."

      You know what was in this gods mind?? How?? Don't use the bible here. Every time you post scripture to prove anything about your god, you're using circular reasoning and discredit your case further. Using the bible to defend your god is like using Cinderella to defend pumpkins turning to chariots.

      July 29, 2014 at 9:10 pm |
    • Reality

      And once again saving Austin and all misguided Christians out there if only they would open their minds:

      The Apostles' Creed 2014: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

      Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
      and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
      human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

      I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
      preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
      named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
      girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

      Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
      the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

      He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
      a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of

      Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
      many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
      and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
      Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
      grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
      and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
      called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

      (references used are available upon request)

      July 30, 2014 at 12:41 am |
    • zhilla1980wasp

      sooooooo austin; long story short you failed to answer any of my questions. the only thing you had for replies were scripture from the very book that is in question.

      you failed to answer why lucifer (a spirit) had jewels and gold when those thing don't exist in non-corporal form.

      you failed to answer when god made angels; you had to find a reference in later passages of your book.
      it should have started "in the beginning, god was bored and made angels......then regreted it and made humans."
      then angels revolted (2/3rds of them according to one of your scholars) which god had no clue was coming.

      you failed to answer why your god has multiple personality disorder.

      long story short your holy book failed to provide you with the answer to basic questions. you christians have to jump around on a biblical pogo stick to swing and miss at logic based questions.
      your "holy book" can be "interrpted" to say almost anything anyone wants it to say.

      July 30, 2014 at 7:31 am |
      • jbhollen

        Zhilla – Austin929 is not for real. He is playing at wasting your time and laughing about it. He claimed in an earlier post that he was a profit with 30 visions so far. Ignore him.

        July 30, 2014 at 7:36 am |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          to me i know there are trolls on here and i understand that they attempt to waste people's time; however i respond to trolls and knowledge seekers alike because it just may be my few points on a post that a person that just reads these comments gets them to thinking and seeking answers for themselves.

          if i can get one person to question what they "know" and seek answers for themselves, then it's time well spent for me.

          however thanks for trying to watch out for me. -smiley face-
          i hate that a smiley face can have your comments "placed in moderation" catagory, yet i'm certain there is a reason for that also.

          July 30, 2014 at 8:17 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Do you honestly think he is a troll? He seems much too sure of himself (sadly).

          wasp: Use the html coding for the smiley. :)

          July 30, 2014 at 9:18 am |
  10. jknbt

    this action by the zealots is strange because Jonah like all the other old testament prophets are also considered prophets of Islam....what are these people possibly thinking? They would destroy Abraham's tomb if they could get to it....this does not make any sense at all.

    July 29, 2014 at 2:37 pm |
    • Reality

      So very true and it shows the effect of imam brainwashing amongst the uneducated.

      July 29, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
      • jbhollen

        Muslim Imams don't have any advantage over christians when it comes to brainwashing the uneducated.

        July 29, 2014 at 4:54 pm |
        • Reality

          Au contraire when imams convince their mosque members to kill via suicide bombings and blow up shrines.

          But indeed brainwashing is ubiquitous in all religions but can be easily cured by the following. Please send a copy to all of your religious friends:

          Putting the kibosh on all religion in less than ten seconds: Priceless !!!

          • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.

          • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.

          • There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.

          • There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.

          • There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.

          • Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.

          • Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.

          • A constant cycle of reincarnation until enlightenment is reached and belief that various beings (angels?, tinkerbells? etc) exist that we, as mortals, cannot comprehend makes for a no on Sikhism.

          Added details available upon written request.

          July 30, 2014 at 12:37 am |
  11. truth1914

    Men were never meant to rule over one another. They were created to take their instruction from their heavenly Father. That is one reason that the human race suffers so desperately. Men don't have the mental and moral makeup to govern themselves successfully. The other is recorded at 2 Cor. 4:4.

    Jer. 10:23 I well know, O Jehovah, that man’s way does not belong to him.
    It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.+

    July 28, 2014 at 9:12 pm |
    • Reality

      More Paul brainwash ! There is no heaven other than that caused by the Three B Syndrome, a major neurological defect in all believers in some imaginary god..

      July 28, 2014 at 11:28 pm |
    • alonsoquixote

      truth1914, you wrote "Men were never meant to rule over one another. ... Men don't have the mental and moral makeup to govern themselves successfully."

      I'd remind you of Romans 13, which includes "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has insti_tuted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

      And in regards to Christians submitting to human rulers, there is also 1 Peter 2:13-14 (NIV):

      "13Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right."

      And 1 Peter 2:18 enjoins slaves to submit to their human masters who rule them, even cruel masters.

      "Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

      July 29, 2014 at 8:24 am |
      • zhilla1980wasp

        "The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has insti_tuted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

        exactly, so god placed hitler in power because he wanted him there.
        now remember hitler was elected into office by the german people; and seeing god is perfect (makes no mistakes) he meant for hitler to do his bidding and all others to listen to what hitler had to say. lmao

        July 29, 2014 at 8:29 am |
        • jbhollen

          Zhilla – austin929 is a troll. He will eventually tell you that Armageddon is a party and he is a profit. You're being played.

          July 29, 2014 at 9:07 am |
        • alonsoquixote

          Many German Christians did use Romans 13 to justify support for the Nazis. Todd Jere Harper writes in Hugo Distler and the Renewal Movement in Nazi Germany":

          Since Martin Luther's time, one of German Protestantism's foundations had been unwavering support for state authority. The biblical passage frequently cited to support this assertion and to characterize the correct relation between Christianity and the state was Romans 13:1-2, 5 ... In Lutheran theology, this view developed into the Doctrine of Two Kingdoms, represented by the thrones of the earthly rules and the altar of God. Christians owed political obedience to the throne and religious subservience to the altar. German Protestants viewed their love for the Fatherland and their loyalty to its leaders as patriotic and Christian virtues. The effect upon the German Protestant leadership was that their “belief in Christianity was so closely intertwined with a strong nationalism that it was difficult even for them to say where the one began and the other ended.”

          Romans 13 was used for a long time to support the "divine right of kings", the notion that monarchs derived the right to rule directly from the will of God. Martin Luther's posting of his The Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences in 1517 sparked the Protestant Reformation. His ideas on spiritual freedom were embraced by the German peasants during the German's Peasants' War from 1524 to 1525, which was Europe's largest and most widespread popular uprising prior to the French Revolution of 1789, but Martin Luther sided with the Princes against the rebelling peasants who were dissatisfied with the feudal order. Martin Luther urged the authorities to crush the rebellion in his Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants using Romans 13:1-7 as the justification.

          Another German theologian, Thomas Müntzer led an army of about 8,000 peasants until its defeat in 1525 at the battle of Frankenhausen. He cited Luke 22:35-38 and Matthew 10:34, instead, as support for the rebellion. He and his "army of God" were convinced that God would intervene on their side, but they were utterly defeated with 6,000 of the 8,000 slain and 600 captured, imprisoned, and tortured. Müntzer was tortured and then beheaded with his head and body put on display as a warning to others who might consider preaching treasonous doctrines. The overall death count for the rebels during the war was about 100,000 of the 300,000 poorly armed peasants and farmers.

          July 29, 2014 at 1:09 pm |
        • austin929

          1 John 4:1
          Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

          1 John 4:2
          This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

          1 John 4:3
          but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the

          July 29, 2014 at 8:29 pm |
        • austin929

          The Lamb of God, or Lion of Judah (Jesus Christ), opens the first four of the seven seals, which summons four beings that ride out on white, red, black, and green (pale- mistranslation) horses. Although some interpretations differ, in most accounts, the four riders are seen as symbolizing Conquest,[1] War,[2] Famine,[3] and Death, respectivel

          July 29, 2014 at 8:36 pm |
      • truth1914

        The Governments that we have today are just a consequence of the rebellion in Eden. Yes we are to submit to them to keep relative peace but when their judgements conflict with obediance to God then "we must obey God as ruler and not men"
        Man's governments serve a specific time limited purpose but they will be done away with.
        “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, Daniel 2:44

        July 29, 2014 at 9:58 am |
        • igaftr

          Saying you should follow god and not men, and then quoting men defeats your purpose.

          There is NOTHING showing any god had anything to do with the bible. Nothing at all. You are following the words of men, not any gods.

          July 29, 2014 at 10:11 am |
        • In Santa We Trust

          If only we had evidence of a god and evidence that its word is in a religious text, then discussions based upon those religious texts might have a purpose.

          July 29, 2014 at 10:13 am |
        • truth1914

          Useless point you're trying to make. My faith and belief in God's "inspired word" is strong.

          July 29, 2014 at 10:26 am |
        • In Santa We Trust

          Not useless at all – you can believe in yetis or leprechauns but that doesn't mean they exist. Until you have evidence of a god then anything based upon the flawed history in a religious text is moot.

          July 29, 2014 at 10:29 am |
    • In Santa We Trust

      Do you have an exact date for the last days?

      July 29, 2014 at 10:34 am |
      • jknbt

        we are living in the times of the Great Apostasy predicted in the little book of Jude and also 2 Peter. This is part of the end times scenario, so the end times have already started.

        July 29, 2014 at 2:39 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          And the exact date is ?

          July 29, 2014 at 2:59 pm |
        • jbhollen

          I as.sume the idea of the end times starting just tickles you to death (no pun intended). I have another theory though. The great apostasy is the result of enlightenment and free thinking which erodes reliance on mysticism and supersti.tion.

          July 29, 2014 at 4:46 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          So if you think this, then you must be thinking that climate change isn't real and that this is all part of your gods plan.
          Thinking like that makes you a huge part of the problem with this world. Instead of paying attention to the proper people who study our planet and have provided solid evidence, you rely on a 2000 + year old book to guide you...a book that has been shown to be fallacious and yet a book that you take literally.
          Ignorance is bliss!

          July 29, 2014 at 9:05 pm |
        • jknbt

          Dave Regan has a good article out on why we are living in the End Times. See:


          and Hey TruthPrevails....don't put words in my mouth, okay, I am articulate. Don't credit me for this or that belief based on your own bigoted opinions of conservative type thinking.

          Global Warming is real. Just ask the polar bears. I just don't think it is a good reason to reinvent our entire world civilization with more and more taxes and government control. Nope, got enough of that already.

          It was only 15,000 years ago that an ice bridge went from northern Scotland to Labrador. That explains why Clovis point stone spearheads and arrowheads showed up in the paleontological record when they did. Solterian people from southern Europe made the crossing. Their DNA can be found in certain indian tribes to this day. There were glaciers as far south as the Ohio River. Where are they now?

          This global warming business has been going on for a LOOONNNNGGGG LONG TIME.

          July 30, 2014 at 1:34 pm |
        • jbhollen

          jknbt – Christian apologists and Man Made Global Warming deniers are both tenacious in either making up their own facts or at least having them fed to them and hanging onto them as if to life itself. Where to start...First, there was indeed an ice bridge about 15,000 years ago linking Ireland to North America. It was actually the southern edge of the northern ice pack. Unfortunately, Ireland was not populated with Humans for another 7,000 to 8,000 years (credit prehistoric Ireland "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Ireland"). Next, I am going to guess that the Solterian peoples you mention are actually the Solutrean people. Assuming I have correctly decoded your misspelling of the center of your argument, the Solutrean Hypothesis was largely discredited using the same evidence you claim proves it out – DNA.

          As David Meltzer put it in 2009, "Few if any archaeologists—or, for that matter, geneticists, linguists, or physical anthropologists—take seriously the idea of a Solutrean colonization of America." Recent DNA studies serve to weaken the case that Haplogroup X2A migrated to the Americas by way of the Atlantic. The thesis was popularized by a 2005 Discovery Channel docudrama. (credit wikipedia "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis").

          The appearance of Clovis artifacts is widely known to have found North America via the Siberian land bridge. Also, Solutrean is not Clovis so I'm unsure what connection if any you were trying to make regarding Clovis artifacts "showing up in the paleontological record when they did". You're not exactly providing a reference point with this comment.

          So pretty much every historical point you've made is fiction that was popularized by a 2005 Discovery Channel docudrama.

          The one and only point you make that has basis in fact is that global warming has been around a long time. The Permian being the period that just about wiped out all life on earth. Your comment that we don't need to "reinvent our entire world civilization with more and more taxes and government control " is as short sighted as your history is flawed. Do you really think taxation is going to matter or even help when Manhattan, Miami and other coastal cities are underwater? By the time man made global warming is no longer deniable, even by the dense, our culture is going to be reinvented whether it pleases you or not. Lastly, once the coasts are flooded and sea and climate patterns change, whom do you think you are going to run to for help? The Tea Party? The border militias? Or maybe Rush Limbaugh? People of your ilk and everyone else will be yelling, much too late, for the government to make it go away.

          In closing, the jury is still out on your claim of articulation.

          July 31, 2014 at 11:03 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          but weren't the native americans the lost tribes of Israel? Those Nephites and Lamanites came here with Jesus didn't they?.

          July 30, 2014 at 1:46 pm |
        • jknbt

          hey jbhollen– you missed what I was saying....let me clarify...I resent the patronizing contempt shown by liberals and humanists on this blog. TruthPrevails needs to recognize that being conservative, christian, and vocal does not equate with retardation. And he was guilty of putting words in my mouth and falsely assuming particulars of my mindset.

          Liberals are open minded, tolerant, and respectful of others and their opinions only when they parrot the party line orthodoxy for the liberal worldview. TruthPrevails has a bad case of this character flaw if you read his comments. It sounds like your case is ten times worse. You have gone so far as to put up your own blog to get everyone straightened out.

          I was not debating the global warming crisis or paleontology. That much said, the pattern is there that the world is getting warmer for the last 15,000 years. The coastline was out on the continental shelf back then in some place that are now 180 feet below sea level. Sad to say, the coastal cities will flood eventually. There is no question that CO2 emissions have sped up the process. Some globalists would like this to be the "crisis" that will force the nations to surrender their sovereignty and currencies to their control. Yep, the big government/taxes/globalism crowd is a worse threat to the world than flooded subways in NYC.

          You have a bad case of the sort of disrespect that is rampant on these blog articles. You come across like a junior college earth science teacher dressing down a freshman for a minor footnote in a report. You need to get real and get over yourself. You don't know it all, you can be wrong, and you have misspelled a few words in your lifetime too.

          If they ever make pills that are an antidote for the syndrome of overwhelming patronizing liberal intellectual arrogance, I recommend you get a prescription for the 55 gallon drum size package.

          August 1, 2014 at 8:42 am |
        • jbhollen

          jknbt – I make up my own mind on issues and don't absolutely embrace either the left or right, so don't try to pin some ideological badge on me. But, when I smell BS I call it out – like now. You went into great detail regarding a trans-Atlantic ice bridge15K years ago, Clovis point spearheads and arrowheads, tracking the migration of the Solutrean people using DNA and the paleontological record of the above. After you got it all wrong, and were called on it, you said, "I was not debating paleontology." BS.

          My post was not to “straighten everyone out” but rather to just call you out on your nonsense. You throw a bunch of garbage out there as facts to make some obtuse point in support of your fear of “big government/taxes/globalism”.

          I’m concluding that you are just another ditto head or some other such programmable device whose latest download used the word “sovereignty” a lot. I can picture you wearing a tinfoil hat while typing away about the “they”, who will make us surrender our sovereignty and currencies because of global warming? Who feeds you this stuff?

          The punch line is that you still think that globalization or taxes or big government is going to matter one whit once the full effect of man made global warming hits. You blithely admit that sadly, the coastal cities will eventually flood like that’s an acceptable loss, just as long as we hold globalization at bay?

          You accuse me of disrespect? That is about all you got right. I do not respect your opinions over others facts.

          August 1, 2014 at 5:52 pm |
      • truth1914

        Matthew 24: 36-39

        July 30, 2014 at 12:20 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          Oh like "I see a dark stranger in your future"?

          July 30, 2014 at 12:35 pm |
        • jbhollen

          truth1914 – So no, there is no answer regarding the last day in the bible that can be measured right or wrong. Imagine my surprise. After reading the reference you provided, I can't help but point out one of the uncountable contradictions in scripture. Mat 24:36 – "But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angles of heaven, nor the son, but he father alone". If the son and the father are one, how can the father know something the son does not? Another favorite: just as jesus was on the cross and said his last words (well, one of three different contradictory sets of last words given in the gospels) "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?" If jesus and god are one, how can one forsake the other? And my favorite, the impregnation of a jewish woman by the holy spirit, which is one with Jesus and god. So jesus knocked up his own mother so that he could be born. If he were substantial enough to impregnate her, why bother. Why just not just "be" and start the saga that is his life. Also don't forget that since god is jesus' father as well as himself, god then (the woman's father in law?) also took part in her impregnation. What fun. And lastly, since Mary was impregnated by the holy spirit/Jesus/god, she could not have been impregnated by Joseph which breaks the patriarchal line back to David which is a key requirement per the prophesies for jesus to be the messiah. This is what you discover when you read it all, not just the predigested pap you get in church.

          July 31, 2014 at 1:09 pm |
    • Woody

      "Men don't have the mental and moral makeup to govern themselves successfully" – truth1914

      Most "men" DO have the mental and moral makeup to govern themselves. However, greed and/or goofy religious beliefs (not necessarily in that order) frequently stifle the best intentions.

      July 29, 2014 at 12:20 pm |
    • Vic

      From my own understanding and experience studying the Bible, in matters of Faith/Belief in God and Redemption, hence "Salvation by the Grace of God through Faith ALONE in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and apart from the Law and its works," ONLY God has Dominion, there is no self or other human hand in it, just like creation. Human dominion is given only in self "Free Will," hence to believe or not, decision making, life choices, actions, etc.

      The Lord Jesus Christ did not establish any ecclesiastical human government as man, rather, He is the Head of the Church —simply the body of believers— as the Divine Him.

      Civil governments for order in the land, hence the "Law of the Land," is a "natural function" and it DOES NOT meddle in the individual's Faith/Belief in God, hence the "Establishment Clause" and the "Free Exercise Clause" as well as the "Wall of Separation." That "natural function" is what the Founding Fathers grounded in "Natural Law" —the basis for the U.S. Constitution— which they believed is from "Nature's God" whence comes "Unalienable Rights."

      July 29, 2014 at 12:43 pm |
      • LaBella

        And there remains a "separation" of "church" and "state" for a "reason." And I am "glad" that "separation" exists.

        July 29, 2014 at 12:56 pm |
        • austin929

          La Bella, God seperated mankind at the tower of Babel, and caused the dialect to split up to slow down the process of evil.

          on the same grounds (if i am not mistaken),

          John 18:36 ►

          Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

          this verse and the fact that AFTER CHRIST RESURRECTION, the disciples and apostles ect, no one in the new testament infiltrated the military to conquer the world in a Christian world take over.

          the reason is that power and control are not the prize. the prize is a relation ship with that one and only God and ETERNAL LIFE IN THE ETERNAL HEAVAN

          John 14:3 ►

          And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

          jesus is preparing heaven, and the age of the church is the grace and patience of God as His kingdom is called.

          God bless you.

          July 29, 2014 at 8:45 pm |
        • observer


          "God seperated mankind at the tower of Babel, and caused the dialect to split up to slow down the process of evil."

          What complete NONSENSE. If true, it caused differences between peoples encouraging mistrust and violence. It certainly was a huge negative rather than something that would keep people easily communicating and understanding each other. Just another action by God that hurt rather than helped people.

          July 29, 2014 at 9:02 pm |
        • LaBella

          Austin, with all due respect, your post doesn't address anything I said at all.

          July 29, 2014 at 9:22 pm |
    • tallulah131

      "They were created to take their instruction from their heavenly Father."

      Gosh. Who do you suppose wrote those instructions if not men? Feel free to move to a theocracy if you wish to be led by priests and pastors. I prefer to live in a land where I can vote on my representation and where I am free to believe as I choose. I am grateful to the Founding Fathers of this nation who knew the dangers of your brand of thinking. It's no coincidence that the rest of the developed world followed in the footsteps of the United States in separating church from state.

      July 29, 2014 at 1:00 pm |
      • truth1914

        Last I checked the government's money says "IN GOD WE TRUST"???

        July 30, 2014 at 12:27 pm |
        • tallulah131

          Last time I checked, our laws and government were based on the Constitution, not on words added to our currency long after the nation was founded. I really hope you are a troll. I'd hate to think that our education system failed you so terribly.

          July 30, 2014 at 12:36 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          Only since the 1950's – introduced under the guise of anti-communism.

          July 30, 2014 at 12:40 pm |
        • igaftr

          That lie on our money is an embarrassment, so I cross it off of every bill I handle.
          So at least some of the money does not say that lie.

          July 30, 2014 at 12:45 pm |
        • jbhollen

          truth1914 – If we are basing faith on a dollar bill (which is a common christian practice metaphorically) I assume you are a freemason as well?

          July 31, 2014 at 1:53 pm |
      • truth1914

        And doesn't your Pledge Of Allegence say "indivisible under God"???

        July 30, 2014 at 12:33 pm |
        • tallulah131

          You must be a troll. The laws of this nation are based on the Constitution, not on words added in 1954 to the non-binding, ritualistic "Pledge of Allegiance".

          July 30, 2014 at 12:40 pm |
        • igaftr

          no. It was originally written by a pastor, and included all people, the christians hiojacked it in the fifties and unconst!tutionally changed it, excluding all who do not believe, so no ...MY pledge does not say it.

          That LIE on our money was the christians again hijacking the national motto, and turning it into the lie that is now on our money.

          July 30, 2014 at 12:40 pm |
        • jbhollen

          igaftr – I think we are pretty much on the same wavelength on this blog, but I wanted to comment that the pledge of allegiance is not const.itutional text other than being protected speech.

          July 31, 2014 at 2:03 pm |
        • jbhollen

          Truth1914 – no it says "one nation under god, indivisible.... ". The god reference was approved by congress at the urging of President Eisenhower in 1954.

          July 30, 2014 at 6:25 pm |
        • truth1914

          I think Eisenhower was much smarter than you guys. I'm just saying.

          July 30, 2014 at 8:02 pm |
        • jbhollen

          He was a dolt concerning the founding fathers design to separate mysticism and government.

          July 30, 2014 at 8:58 pm |
        • jbhollen

          As I said before he was a dolt for not understanding the founding fathers desire to keep mysticism out of government.

          July 31, 2014 at 12:52 am |
        • truth1914

          True religion isn't mysticism.

          July 31, 2014 at 10:22 am |
        • jbhollen

          Truth1914 – Your answer to my post was "True religion isn’t mysticism". Unless there have been recent revelations I am not aware of, the phrase "True Religion" is an oxymoron not unlike "True Lies". Basically meaning that none of the mystic claims or magic that your religion is based on have ever been proven out in any repeatable, testable or recordable way. I am assuming that your definition of "True Religion" is that out of the more than 35,000 religions and sects that are extant today, yours happens to be the only "true" one. I am willing to bet that the pract.itioners of the other 34,999 religions/sects know that their religion is the only "true" one. How happy you must be knowing that they are all wrong. Does any of this hit home with you and highlight just how far fetched all religious beliefs are? Or does this just bounce off of your impenetrable shield to all that is rational?

          btw – even if a "one true religion/sect/cult.." could somehow exist, it is still mysticism.

          July 31, 2014 at 3:54 pm |
        • alonsoquixote

          truth1914, "Under God" wasn't in the original Pledge of Allegiance written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister and Christian Socialist who believed in the equal distribution of economic resources, which he believed was inherent in the teachings of Jesus. The phrase was added in 1954 after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, the world's largest Catholic fraternal service organization, making the pledge into both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

          The original pledge language was “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.” A generation later, in 1923 the Pledge was adopted by the first National Flag Conference in Washington where some participants expressed concerns that use of the words “my flag” could be confusing for immigrants still thinking of their home countries. So the wording was changed to “the Flag of the United States of America.”

          "In God we trust" has appeared on U.S. coins since 1864, but didn't appear on U.S. paper currency until after Dwight Eisenhower, America's 34th president, signed the legislation on July 30, 1956, 58 years ago today, adding it to all U.S. currency. It started appearing on U.S. currency in 1957.

          In 1907 the phrase was omitted from the design of the $20 coin the U.S. Treasury was minting because President Theodore Roosevelt, American's 26th president, who was also a Christian, a Sunday school teacher, and a Republican, opposed the phrase being placed on the coin writing:

          "€œMy own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins, or to use it in any kindred manner, not only does no good but does positive harm, and is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege. ... But it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps or in advertisements. As regards its use on the coinage, we have actual experience by which to go. In all my life I have never heard any human being speak reverently of this motto on the coins or show any signs of its having appealed to any high emotion in him, but I have literally, hundreds of times, heard it used as an occasion of and incitement to the sneering ridicule which it is, above all things, undesirable that so beautiful and exalted a phrase should excite."

          You can find Roosevelt's comments on the matter in their entirety at query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9406E2D8103EE033A25757C1A9679D946697D6CF ; you don't have to subscribe to view the relevant article, just click on the link in "Or, download a high-resolution PDF of the individual article." After a public outcry, though, the phrase was added to the coin in 1908, despite Roosevelt's objection to its presence on the coin.

          In a 1915 address before the Knights of Columbus, the Catholic organization responsible, decades later, for inclusion of "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, President Teddy Roosevelt said "I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State; that public moneys shall not be used for the purpose of advancing any particular creed; and therefore that the public schools shall be non-sectarian and no public moneys appropriated for sectarian schools."

          The inclusion of the phrases on America's paper currency and in its Pledge of Allegiance were an outgrowth of the McCarthy era when it was deemed important for Americans to distinguish themselves from the "godless communists". This was the time of the Second Red Scare from 1950 to 1956 when a campaign of fear and smear tactics by Senator Joseph McCarthy created an atmosphere of paranoia and a fear of appearing unpatriotic in the U.S. in which many Americans had their livelihoods destroyed by such tactics. Thousands of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers based upon questionable evidence and were subjected to investigations and questioning before government committees or private-industry panels. If you are unfamiliar with this period in American history, you can get an overview in the Wikipedia article ti_tled "McCarthyism".

          July 30, 2014 at 9:59 pm |
        • igaftr

          "wanted to comment that the pledge of allegiance is not const.itutional text other than being protected speech."

          That much is true, but when it is a law that is passed to make the change, it then becomes unconst!tutional., since it the law itself that favors a religion.

          July 31, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • jbhollen

          Ah ha. Right you are. I missed the point that the pledge was changed as an act of congress. I though you just meant it got hijacked by the religious.

          My bad.

          July 31, 2014 at 3:59 pm |
  12. Dyslexic doG

    That's an interesting story but how did anyone actually know this? This story is like a bronze age Harry Potter story, entirely imagined by men. Now, millennia later, you try and say it is real?

    The fact that you believe it as real is an indication of your gullibility, not of the stories' authenticity!

    July 28, 2014 at 3:21 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      sorry ... that was a reply to Austin-tayshus.

      July 28, 2014 at 3:22 pm |
  13. austin929


    austin: when exactly did god create angels? i know all of genesis and nowhere in there is anything mentioned during his 6 days of work god creating angels.

    Satan was created by God thousands of years ago as a perfect angel. Satan was called Lucifer and he lived in heaven.

    Lucifer was above every other angel in heaven. His appearance was beautiful and dazzling. He radiated light and glory. He was covered with gold and shimmering jewels. Lucifer was the Chief Covering angel and he worked in the throne room of God.

    12 "You were the seal of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    Every precious stone was your covering:
    The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
    Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
    Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
    The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
    Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
    14 You were the anointed cherub who covers;
    I established you;
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.”
    Ezekiel 28:12-14

    Lucifer spent a lot of time with God the father and Jesus Christ. They met together frequently to share ideas and make plans. They were very close to each other and were in perfect harmony.
    Lucifer became proud

    Just over 6,000 years ago God and Jesus had a private meeting and Lucifer was not included. Lucifer became jealous. He set out on a campaign to prove that he was above Jesus. Lucifer began to be proud of his own glory and wisdom.

    "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.” Ezekiel 28:17

    "you have set your heart as the heart of a god.” Ezekiel 28:6

    Over time one third of the angels in heaven chose to side with Lucifer and to worship him instead of Jesus. God made tireless efforts to persuade Lucifer to repent and return to God. Lucifer almost relented, but he would not give up his pride and humble himself. He refused to admit that he was wrong.
    Lucifer thrown out of heaven

    Eventually Lucifer became entrenched in his pride and God could no longer influence him. God reluctantly removed Lucifer from his position of Chief Covering angel. Lucifer was thrown out of heaven, along with the angels who had chosen to follow him.

    "How you are fallen from heaven,
    O Lucifer, son of the morning!
    How you are cut down to the ground,
    You who weakened the nations!
    13 For you have said in your heart:
    'I will ascend into heaven,
    I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
    I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
    On the farthest sides of the north;
    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
    I will be like the Most High.'” Isaiah 14:12-14

    July 28, 2014 at 3:17 pm |
    • zhilla1980wasp

      ok so let me get this right.
      your god as an after-thought placed lucifer in his role.

      does your god understand chronological order? because i do.

      genesis: there was nothing, then god made everything......no mention of angels.
      genesis: a "serpent" tricks eve into eating of the fruit. the "serpent" is the fallen angel lucifer.

      ummmm so where exactly did god create the angels? was it before or after the fall of man? did he create angels on tuesday, or wednesday?

      a perfect being can't even follow basic steps in how it's story should go; proves it's just a delusion of human making.

      July 29, 2014 at 7:44 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Wow Austin, are you ever dense!! Using the bible to prove its own stories is not proof of anything!! Find us the evidence of those stories outside of that book and you might finally have some form of a point!
      What you're doing is using circular reasoning and that fails.

      July 29, 2014 at 7:53 am |
    • zhilla1980wasp

      which came first, ezekiel or genesis?

      what use would a non-coporal being (spirit) have need for material things? i.e. gold and jewels.

      how is it that gold and jewels existed when nothing else did?
      what i mean is angels would have to been created before the rest of creation for them to even get jealous of humans.

      how is it that "jesus and god" were able to talk when the "jesus" spirit hadn't even been created yet?

      how can spirits have "talks"? much less private talks seeing nothing is physically blocking lucifer from listenning in?

      " share ideas and make plans." why would an all-knowing being need to make a plan with his self-son?
      wouldn't god already know what he planned to do and what the "jesus" spirit would say before he said it?

      again, it's just a delusion of human creation.

      July 29, 2014 at 8:26 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Austin: I have an off-topic question for you....what is the one thing that prevent me from entering heaven according to your belief system??

      July 29, 2014 at 9:00 am |
      • austin929

        hey buddy! how ya doing TP?

        well if you deny the truth of the resurrection of man who was God, and there by deny the Holy Spirit access.

        If you shun God.

        July 29, 2014 at 8:39 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          So me rejecting its existence is shunning it. So this becomes an issue.
          I have never committed a crime; I treat everyone as they deserve to be treated; I respect this planet...I'm not perfect and yet the one thing that keeps me from being 'special' is my questioning.
          You drove your car in to a church...you somehow deserve heaven or me or anyone else here who kept an open-mind and questioned??? How is that fair? How does that even make sense to you?

          July 29, 2014 at 8:50 pm |
    • evidencenot

      Mythology can be fun, but not when the deluded mistake it for reality.

      July 29, 2014 at 10:28 am |
    • tallulah131

      Religion allows austin to feel special. Without religion, austin would be just a normal person and that's just not enough for austin. Some people try out for American Idol when they want to feel special. Austin pretends to speak for god instead.

      July 29, 2014 at 1:03 pm |
    • alonsoquixote

      austin929, you end your response to zhilla1980wasp regarding Lucifer with the passage from Isaiah 14:12-14, which mentions "Lucifer, son of the morning". The Lucifer referenced in that passage is a Babylonian king. The "Lucifer" that appears in that passage is the English rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל, which is a word that appears only once in the Tanakh, the Hebrew Bible. The translation to "lucifer" comes from the Latin Vulgate, where it means "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing". The author of Isaiah 24:12-14 is comparing an image of the morning star fallen from the sky to a dead Babylonian king, an image the author appears to have borrowed from a legend in Canaanite mythology. In later Christian tradition, the Latin word for "morning star" was associated with Satan, but that is not what the Lucifer in that passages means. "Lucifer" occurs in the King James Version of the Bible, but in more modern versions "morning star", "shining star", or something similar is used, instead, as you can see at biblehub.com/isaiah/14-12.htm , which offers parallel verses from many translations of the Bible into English. I'd also refer you to "Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible" commentary on the passage, which you will find at that link, which includes the following:

      This is not to be understood of the fall of Satan, and the apostate angels, from their first estate, when they were cast down from heaven to hell, though there may be an allusion to it; see Luke 10:18 but the words are a continuation of the speech of the dead to the king of Babylon, wondering at it, as a thing almost incredible, that he who seemed to be so established on the throne of his kingdom, which was his heaven, that he should be deposed or fall from it. ... O Lucifer, son of the morning! alluding to the star Venus, which is the phosphorus or morning star, which ushers in the light of the morning, and shows that day is at hand; by which is meant, not Satan, who is never in Scripture called Lucifer, though he was once an angel of light, and sometimes transforms himself into one, and the good angels are called morning stars, Job 38:7 and such he and his angels once were; but the king of Babylon is intended, whose royal glory and majesty, as outshining all the rest of the kings of the earth, is expressed by those names; and which perhaps were such as he took himself, or were given him by his courtiers. ... how art thou cut down to the ground; like a tall tree that is cut down, and laid along the ground, and can never rise and flourish more, to which sometimes great monarchs and monarchies are compared; see Isaiah 10:18 and this denotes that the king of Babylon should die, not a natural, but a violent death, as Belshazzar did, with whom the Babylonish monarchy fell, and never rose more; ...

      In regards to the Canaanite myth on which the allusion appears to be based, Hermann Gunkel (1862–1932), an influential German Old Testament scholar, linked that myth to a mighty warrior called Hêlal, whose ambition it was to ascend higher than all the other stellar divinities. The myth has also been associated with the Canaannite god Attar, god of the morning star in western Semitic mythology, who attempts to usurp the throne of the god Baal Hadad, but fails.

      July 29, 2014 at 7:47 pm |
      • austin929

        n regards to the Canaanite myth on which the allusion appears to be based...........

        that is reasonable that you hope that everything biblical is a copycat, the problem for you is the reality that "we created in our image" is plural, becuase the creator redeemer had his hand in creation.

        John ch. 1 all things were made through Him. "the Word of God"

        July 29, 2014 at 8:14 pm |
        • alonsoquixote

          austin929, I presume you comment about "we created in our image" is plural is referring to Genesis 1:26 (biblehub.com/genesis/1-26.htm), but I don't know why you would think that would be a problem for me. My comment pertained to Isaiah 14:12-14 and Lucifer. How is that plural reference in Genesis 1:26 related to Isaiah 14:12-14? Even if you believe that Satan was a co-creator of the universe with Yahweh, where is there any reference to Lucifer in Genesis or anywhere else in the Bible, but Isaiah 14:12-14? If not, I don't see any link from my comment to your reply. Are you suggesting that Satan was a co-creator of the universe?

          July 29, 2014 at 9:30 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.