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August 9th, 2014
06:01 PM ET
Why missionaries put their lives on the lineBy Daniel Burke and Ashley Fantz, CNN (CNN) - It wasn’t as if God's voice boomed through sun-parted clouds, telling Kent Brantly to move his family to Liberia. Still, the young doctor said, the call was clear. It echoed through the congregation where he was raised, Southeastern Church of Christ in Indianapolis. Standing before the church community in July 2013, months before he left for Africa, Brantly said he heard the call in the teachers who urged him to memorize Scripture and the neighbors who funded his first mission trip years ago. He saw it in the aunts and uncles who spent their vacations running Bible camps, organizing youth groups and serving missions themselves in Africa. “It may not seem like much,” Brantly said in an emotional address to the Southeastern congregation, “but when you connect the dots you see a grand design that God has used to draw my life in a certain direction.” For Brantly, that meant serving a two-year medical mission in Liberia with Samaritan’s Purse, a Christian relief organization. But in a grim twist that garnered international headlines, the 33-year-old contracted Ebola while treating patients and was airlifted back to the United States. Brantly and a fellow missionary, Nancy Writebol, who was serving with SIM, another Christian aid organization, are being treated for the disease at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta. After Liberia's outbreak began in March 2013, Writebol volunteered at a hospital in Monrovia, where she disinfected doctors and nurses working with patients stricken by the disease. Despite their weakened health, their trust in God remains strong, family members said. “Mom is tired from her travel, but continues to fight the virus and strengthen her faith in her Redeemer, Jesus,” said Jeremy Writebol, Nancy’s son. On Friday, Brantly said that he felt a spiritual serenity even after learning his diagnosis. “I remember a deep sense of peace that was beyond all understanding,” he said. “God was reminding me of what he had taught me years ago, that he will give me everything I need to be faithful to him. Though Brantly's wife and children had been in Liberia with him, they had returned to the United States when he became ill. In addition to the American missionaries, a nun and a priest from Spain who worked in Liberia also contracted Ebola, two more victims in an outbreak that health officials describe as the largest and most complex in the history of the disease. As of Saturday, 961 people have died, nearly all in Liberia, Sierra Leone and Guinea, where more than 1,770 cases have been reported, according to the World Health Organization. Heroic or foolish? In the United States, much of the attention last week focused on the missionaries, who knowingly put themselves in harm’s way. Christians have long debated the effectiveness of missions, with some arguing that they can, at times, cause more harm than good – both to missionaries and the people they are trying to help. But rarely has the debate ranged as far afield of Christian circles or become as bitterly divided as it has since the American missionaries' return to the United States. Prominent Christians, such as R. Albert Mohler Jr. and Russell Moore, called Brantly and Writebol heroic. The missionaries knew the risks of contracting Ebola but worked with patients, doctors and nurses to try to contain the outbreak, the evangelicals said. On the other hand, real estate mogul Donald Trump tweeted that people who travel to foreign countries to help are "great" but “must suffer the consequences” of their actions. Conservative commentator Ann Coulter was even more unsympathetic, saying Brantley’s health status had been “downgraded to ‘idiotic.’” “Why did Dr. Brantly have to go to Africa?” Coulter wrote. “The very first ‘risk factor’ listed by the Mayo Clinic for Ebola - an incurable disease with a 90 percent fatality rate - is: ‘Travel to Africa.’” Nancy Writebol's husband, David, who remains in Liberia, answered the critics on Friday. Writebol said he knows that some think missionaries like his wife are "foolish, or worse," to "put everybody in danger by going" to places like Liberia. "But it’s that very calling," he said, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "that demonstrates the characteristics, the great things that Christ has done for humanity. He left heaven and he came to a place of suffering and trouble and went about doing good.” The Great Commission Besides the personal pull described by missionaries like Brantly, for centuries Christians have followed a more general call to spread the Gospel through word and deed. Known as the Great Commission, it began when Jesus told the apostles to “go and make disciples of all nations.” Since then, millions of believers – from Baptists to Mormons to Jehovah’s Witnesses - have stuffed scriptures into suitcases and preached the Gospel in nearly every corner of the globe. For centuries, serving those missions meant spending decades abroad, learning a culture and its language, and trying, with varying degrees of success, to convert native peoples to Christianity. But short-term missions - often defined as less than two years - exploded in the 1970s and ‘80s with the advent of cheap and safe travel, scholars say. For evangelicals in particular, mission trips have become almost a rite of passage. In his 33 years, Kent Brantly had already served missions in Haiti, Honduras, Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and Nicaragua. In doing so, Brantly is one of an estimated 1.6 million Americans adults who embark on short-term mission trips to foreign countries each year, according to Princeton University sociologist Robert Wuthnow. If domestic missions and Christians under 18 were included, that number would rise to about 2.4 million, said David Armstrong, executive director of Mission Data International. It’s an indication of how seriously Christians take Jesus’ call to reach “all nations,” a task to which they bring ever-increasing technical sophistication. The Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts, for instance, keeps tabs on the precise percentage of the world’s population who have been “evangelized.” As of mid-2014, about 71% of the world has heard the Gospel through personal preaching, radio, television books or other media, the center says. But not all missions are about evangelizing. There are basically three types of missionaries, said Albert W. Hickman, a researcher at the Center for the Study of Global Christianity: those who preach, those who do good works, and those who do both. SIM, which Nancy Writebol joined in 2013, belongs in the last category. 'Do you mind if I pray with you?' Originally know as Sudan Interior Ministry, the Christian group has been active in Africa since 1893, when two young Canadians and an American set out to preach the Gospel in sub-Saharan Africa. Within months, the men contracted malaria. Two died, but one survived and went on to help lay the groundwork for the modern SIM, which now stands for the more general Serving in Mission. “Even early on, our people were willing to sacrifice or to die for their faith,” said George Salloum, SIM USA’s vice president of finance and operations. More than 1,600 SIM missionaries now work in 60 countries. The majority are recruited online, a process that starts with questions for applicants like: Do you share your faith with others? Is prayer a regular part of your life? Are you disciplined, accountable? Have your really thought about how hard being a missionary will be? The list of missions SIM offers is extensive – from a Bible school teacher in Mongolia to a water engineer in South Sudan. The group also sends medical professionals to mission hospitals and clinics throughout the world. Before they travel, missionaries go through cross-cultural training, learning, for example, how close should they stand while taking to someone and how different cultures greet strangers. Missionaries also are also trained in their most critical skill, Salloum said: How to provide practical help while simultaneously spreading the Gospel. For instance, when a person suffers from an illness or injury, the medical missionary will approach and ask if they can help. “The missionary just shares something ... and then sometimes they’ll say, ‘Do you mind if I pray with you?’” “People will say, ‘Why are you doing that?’ And we tell them that’s what Christ did,’” Salloum said. “It’s a natural transition – someone who has a physical need then to have a spiritual need.” That's precisely what Nancy Writebol did in Liberia, said the SIM executive. “She talked to children, she shared the Gospel. She was just available, there for the people. That was her world.” Writebol and her husband are originally from Charlotte, North Carolina, and have two adult sons, according to SIM. In Liberia, before the outbreak, Nancy served as a personnel coordinator, guiding new missionaries as they entered the West African country. She also volunteered on the staff of ELWA hospital, where David Writebol worked as a technical services manager of the 100-building complex. "We aren't going to stop our ministry – we believe we can serve wherever God sends us," David Writebol said on Friday. Samaritan’s Purse, the Christian relief organization Brantly worked for, declined to speak to CNN. David Armstrong, from Mission Data International, said the organization, which is headed by Franklin Graham, focuses chiefly on emergency aid, particularly the physical needs of native populations. But they also try to tend to spiritual needs, which means providing Bibles and setting up prayer meetings. “They are sharing the Gospel, but it’s more of a one-on-one, person-to-person thing,” Armstrong said. Good works (without preaching the Gospel) One of the world's largest faith-based organizations doesn't even like the "missionary" label, according to a spokesman, because of the word's association with proselytizing. Though Catholic Relief Services says it is motivated by the Gospel to embody Catholic social and moral teaching, it does not preach to the people it helps. In fact, you don't even have to be Catholic to work for Catholic Relief Services. Among its 4,500 workers are many Muslims, Hindus and members of other religions, said Bill O’Keefe, the organization’s vice president of advocacy. “We assist people of all backgrounds and religions and we do not attempt to engage in discussions of faith," O’Keefe said. “We’re proud of that. We like to say that we assist everybody because we’re Catholic, we don’t assist people to become Catholic.” Founded in 1943, CRS has 4,500 workers more than 60 countries, including 250 CRS workers in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Guinea and Nigeria, the West African nations hit hardest by the latest Ebola outbreak. “The biggest obstacles they’re facing is misinformation,” said CRS spokesman Michael Stulman, who was recently in Sierra Leone. “The people believe that Ebola is a curse or that it’s a lie made up by authorities.” Meredith Dyson, CRS’s health program manager in Freetown, Sierra Leone, said her job is to get the public to stop believing those myths. Some Liberians, for instance, believe that a soft drink can cure the disease, or that Ebola is a nefarious plot concocted by nongovernmental organizations and the government. “People say don’t go to the hospital, you won’t come back because healthcare workers are injecting people and killing them,” she said. “Every myth is born of some kind of truth – it is partly what they’re seeing – people are going to hospital and not coming home.” Dyson, 31, studied public health at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore where she met people who worked for CRS. Though not Catholic herself, Dyson said the church's teachings on human dignity and social justice resonated deeply with her. Describing the recent Ebola outbreak, Dyson's voice breaks as she recalls two CRS colleagues - both Africans - who died will trying to help others. “The people who work in this setting are close knit,” she said. “They become your family. It can be really hard.” Unexpected places Back in the United States, sitting in an isolation room at Emory University hospital, Brantly said he didn’t move to Liberia to fight Ebola, but that it became necessary after the outbreak there. He said he held the hands of countless patients who died of the disease, and still remembers each of their faces and names. Brantly's mission may not have been what he imagined when he spoke to Southeastern Church of Christ those many months ago, but his focus remains the same: going wherever God leads. “One thing I have learned," Brantly said, "is that following God often leads us to unexpected places.”
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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@ Bob........I keep tying to explain rev 2:23 to you. here it is again. this verses is about Jezebel. Jezebel slaughtered all the prophets of God, and this was when the awesome Elijah was alive. so why would you defend Jezebel instead of God, when she was already guilty of murdering the prophets? isn't there something odd about that?
20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into s.exual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
bob, you are talking about the children of the satanic force of the prophets of baal and the devil. the children of Jezebel?
have you ever researched Jezebel? do you know who she is? she has a demonic presence.
No, Austin, what you are showing, and in regard to one particular quote, is just more nasty vengeance and excessive violence from your foul sky fairy. Take a look at the other nastiness there from your jerk in the sky too:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
For Bob:
What is Love?
The word that was used for love in the days of Jesus and during the time the New Testament was written was ‘eros,’ Eros love is generated by the nature of the object that is loved, whether a thing or a person. Eros love distinguishes between that which is lovely and that which is undesirable based upon the inherent value of the person or thing. As we all know, people and things change over time. Thus, eros love moves on to the newest thing that is better than the older thing that once was loved, or to a different person that seems more worthy of love than the person who was once loved.
Eros love is driven to satisfy its own desires. Love is declared for a person based on the satisfaction that person is giving to the other. If another person comes along who is more desirable, the first ‘object’ of love is cast aside and a new object takes their place.
The word ‘eros’ does not appear in the New Testament. The word used to express God’s love for man is ‘agape.’ Agape love is not based in the attractiveness of the person or thing, but rather it arises in the heart of the Lover regardless of the condition of the one loved. Agape love reaches out to all men regardless of their condition, beauty or what they can do for the Lover. It is an unconditional love based on the heart of the Lover (God) that knows no limitations or boundaries.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) This agape of God springs from His heart and is infinite and unwavering. This love does not fade with time. This love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. This Love never fails.
That is why Paul prays…. that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love (agape) may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love (agape) of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
God is Agape. Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. (1 John 4:7-11)
Barry Bennett (CBC)
He is going to yell at you for that. And call you an idiot. And tell you that you have a nasty sky-fairy for a God. You know, the usual hostile CNN Belief Blog anti-theist response.
lol... as long as he reads it. (the people who name-call and insults waste their hatred on me, because I'm totally unaffected by them- for the most part I actually laugh when I see insults – I know I've encountered a spirit: be it religious, pride, anger, hate, anti-Christ etc.) I wanted him to read the foll. but decided to post the whole thing.
The word ‘eros’ does not appear in the New Testament. The word used to express God’s love for man is ‘agape.’ Agape love is not based in the attractiveness of the person or thing, but rather it arises in the heart of the Lover regardless of the condition of the one loved. Agape love reaches out to all men regardless of their condition, beauty or what they can do for the Lover. It is an unconditional love based on the heart of the Lover (God) that knows no limitations or boundaries.
Yea. You set a good example. Reminds me of MLK, JR:
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
I need to follow that, not react to hate with hate.
I know you already know it's a continuous growing process, as you've been more tolerant of and more willing to turn the other cheek than most (myself included).
So God Bless You.
rbb – I'll get to your comments at a later time. Blessings!
The Christian bible has plenty of instruction purportedly from your evil sky fairy for you to hate and be bigoted and to do violence. Just a few samples, from both foul testaments:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Ok, Groot. Keep saying the same thing over and over.
Coward Dalahast, as usual, you cannot reply with any substance. No surprise there.
If Dalahast is stuck for an answer it probably means that the charlatan shamans running the cults he attends are stuck for an answer.
Ace – I think you and Bob are more like the people you imagine run my church than the people who actually run my church.
"I was barked at by numerous dogs who are earning their food guarding ignorance and superst.ition for the benefit of those who profit from it. Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source. They are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional "opium of the people"—cannot bear the music of the spheres. The Wonder of nature does not become smaller because one cannot measure it by the standards of human moral and human aims." – Einstein
Typical ignorant nonsense of a Fundie.
The word eros was Greek, as well as was the Greek work "agape". They werein use at the same time, and both long before and apart from any of new-man's religious crap. Christianity appropriated what was already in wide use, and slapped it onto their deities.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape The Hebrews made no such distinction until they became Hellenized.
well, aren't you smart. the New Testament was written in Greek.
I have to give them credit. I don't have the onions to go myself. Maybe these groups can get republicans to accept the medicaid expansion so poor people IN THIS COUNTRY can get the heath care they need.
I wish both the best in a speedy recovery. I have zero qualms about them being brought back here for treatment. We have the best doctors and they deserve the best care.
If only your religion would inspire people to develop medicines and vaccines effective against the diseases of the impoverished world, then your missionaries might have something to offer when they go out into that world. But your religion makes you comfortable to send them out offering plati tudes and false hope while your 401K grows on profits drug companies make on vanity and hypochondria closer to home.
Right! And this is why Canadians and people from all over the world come to the U.S. for medical treatment.
awanderingscot,
Except for Sarah Palin's family who went to Canada instead.
That wasn't my point, but it is interesting that Americans are going to India, Indonesia, Argentina and other places to get affordable care. But perhaps that will change as social reforms progress in America.
Yikes.
Missionary work is a slippery slope.
Traditional missionary work – the building of schools and infrastructure, particularly to instruct young people and specifically intended to proselytize and convert people is wrong.
The "great commission" is wrong. It presumes a monopoly on "truth" held by the 'commissioned'.
Missionary work done without any expectation of a quid pro quo, in providing medical services, clean water, mosquito nets, or whatever is very laudable, but this is a difficult path to tread without it becoming a slippery slope into the conversion process.
The idea of bearing witness by living a good life is all very well and good and I think it's reasonable for anyone to explain their faith to someone who is curious – if asked, but that should not be the purpose of the mission. The purpose of the mission should be the charitable work itself – not an outcome that results in conversions. I think missionaries may find the temptation to proselytize – whether the subject of the proselytizing wants it or not – difficult to resist.
At some point it becomes a bit like a sales person or a lobbyist with an expense account – they are trying to sell someone something. That's all well and good in the commercial world, but less laudable in the spiritual world.
That these two people risked their lives to help others who are suffering is very commendable. I hope the help they provided came without strings attached and I hope they can recover from this horrible disease.
From the article:
"There are basically three types of missionaries, said Albert W. Hickman, a researcher at the Center for the Study of Global Christianity: those who preach, those who do good works, and those who do both."
Wikipedia has this to say of 'Samaritan's Purse' (run by Franklin Graham and the sponsor of Kent Brantley):
"In March 2001,The New York Times reported that Samaritan's Purse had "blurred the line between church and state", in the way it had distributed publicly funded aid to victims of the El Salvador earthquake. Residents from several villages stated they first had to sit through a half hour prayer meeting before receiving assistance. In a statement, USAID said Samaritan's Purse had not violated federal guidelines, but emphasized the need for the organization to "maintain adequate and sufficient separation" between prayer sessions and publicly funded activities."
I agree. One should, perhaps, be prepared, as a representative of the Christian organization to communicate one's beliefs and even assist with conversion, but it should not be in any way shape or form a required part of the charitable service they provide. That makes it sort of like you are selling the Word. In the sense that you are buying an audience who may easily pretend to be interested. This is not a model for a sincere exchange of knowledge or even belief. It is selling timeshares.
Well, a missionary is, by definition, someone sent to a foreign country to promote Christianity, so it's going to be hard to separate that...
It can be done. The article provides this example:
"Though Catholic Relief Services says it is motivated by the Gospel to embody Catholic social and moral teaching, it does not preach to the people it helps.
In fact, you don't even have to be Catholic to work for Catholic Relief Services. Among its 4,500 workers are many Muslims, Hindus and members of other religions, said Bill O’Keefe, the organization’s vice president of advocacy."
I argue that "Good works (without preaching the Gospel)" is the 'right' way to run a mission.
Of course there are plenty of other charities that do similar things: Médecins Sans Frontières, The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, etc. They are not religiously based so I wouldn't call them missionaries.
All of the organizations you listed are stellar, with Doctors Without Borders holding a special place in my heart.
It is not wrong and it is not wrong because you say so. They do a good work in easing suffering and leveraging a better life for these people; but what is more admirable is they have the eternal welfare of these people in their hearts and minds. Just because YOU don't want to go through the door doesn't mean you have to begrudge others who may want to go through that door! Shame on you.
Is it right to offer people things that are eternal when there is nothing eternal?
If receiving those medical necessities is contingent on conversion to a religion, any religion, it is wrong.
Believing that you have a 'monopoly on truth' and that your culture and traditions trumps the culture and traditions of others, simply because it is yours, is arrogant and wrong.
Eternality is a hope that all humans have seated in the heart and mind, like a distant memory placed there long ago. Some choose to deny it and believe the devil's lie; and some humbly accept the promise our heavenly Father holds out.
Everyone, including you believe they are right. It's none of your business what anyone else believes. Furthermore, it is the Holy Spirit that quickens and makes the heart receptive to the gospel and that's none of your business if others embrace it.. Only an evil mind would presume that conversion is a precondition to receiving charity by those who offer charity (love).
"Everyone, including you believe they are right. It's none of your business what anyone else believes."
--------------------–
I agree with you 100%. This is why trying to convert people is wrong.
Like you said "it's none of your business what anyone else believes" – they are ent.tled to believe what they want and it is no one's position to tell them their belief is wrong and that they should believe something different.
Missionary are causing a social in India.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IzsXOnsH3w
a woman dressing in her traditional garb attacked in a christian neighborhood for wearing her traditional garbs, end the christian mission now!
Lots of people in India don't want Christian missions there.
Only an idiot would be a missionary in a place like North Korea or Iran.
the church in india is growing at a higher rate there than anywhere in the world.
While we have ass hole Robert Brown mis-quoting what I said and attributing bible quotes to me rather than to his horrid holy book, let's take a look at some quotes from his horrid bible. From both foul testaments, and read closely this time, stupid ass wipe Robert Brown:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Forgot one :
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. - Deuteronomy 21:18-21
I bet you do not even know which covenant you're under.
I just knew you were going to cook up that one. The fact is you pick and choose when you decide to keep the "Old Law" or the "New One". The fact is even Paul was capricious about it. YOU say we still muct keep the COMMANDMENTS, right ? The OLD LAW ? Paul said women must keep quiet "according to the law". SO which is it. Free from it, or bound by it ?
The fact is there were many "covenants". Jesus never said he was ushering in a new one. He thought the end was coming soon. The original "covenant" was that the polytheistic Hebrews agreed to worship only one of the gods they believed in (Yahweh the Babylonian war-god), IF he would help them with their battles.
BTW, I thought you people think morality comes from the gods. If your deity is timeless and changeless, how come it's given morals changed ?
Oops.
The new covenant begins with Jesus on the cross. A covenant/will/testament is only enforced when someone dies. The death of Jesus on the cross is of such importance.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
the morals of God have not changed. the 10 commandments can be summed up into the law of love. when you love God and you love others as yourself, then you're in essence keeping the 10 commandments– because you will not covet, commit adultery, steal, murder etc.
God doesn't change.
If you try to understand the covenant He had with the children of Israel and what their agreement was to His covenant. God always keeps His word. It's man who can't keep His.
That's why the new covenant is made between God and God ensuring that it will never/it can never be broken.
Such a great, awesome and loving God we have.
God loves you.
About 17,800,000 results (0.68 seconds) for – comedy gold cnn belief blog Scot and Vic made the front page.
Science Works,
What?
"The morals of god haven't changed". Then the covenants are the same. Can't have it both ways.
I see you could rationalize absolutely anything. Do they teach "slippery-slimey" (how to be intellectually dishonest) in Fundie school ?
Such a capricious deity you have. He promised in the OT that he would EVER AGAIN make another covenant. Yet he did, apparently.
God loves no one. She is a figment. .
Bucky, God got tired of the empty rituals. God regretted making man. God has shown us a patient process that had steps along the way.
the law was laid down so that we would see the history of breaking it , the cycle of falling away and being redeemed,
.......again............by God. again. again..........again.....again......redeemed.
Oops Labella – aushop mentioned comedy gold so i did a fun search on google ma... and posted in wrong spot.
World Cup final: It's Pope versus Pope – CNN Belief Blog ...
religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/09/world.../comment-page-3/
CNN
Jul 9, 2014 – By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Editor (CNN)– Will the World Cup final ... "awanderingscot" as a 2014 BB Comedy Gold Award nomination.
Dang- ausphor
But on another note –
Science Works,
Ah. Gotcha.
I know! Let's leave interpretation of Holy writ to an unregenerate atheist! He'll surely get it right. LOL
wandering,
OK, let's hear your interpretation of those verses.
My interpretation is that God is glorious and righteous in all of his decrees and commandments. In every story, in every parable in the Bible God is found righteous and just and vindicated. I didn't read "Bob's" entire hateful diatribe but the first thing he wanted everyone to think is that God is some kind of monster for His decree in ordering the annihilation of the Midianites. The Lord was justified in this since these wicked people had purposefully corrupted Israel with fornication and idolatry. They had caused the Lord to send a plague amongst the Israelites because of their fornication and idolatry. In addition they also engaged in sacrifice of their young to their god Baal, (he was in reality a demon as are all so-called 'gods'). We reap what we sow and the Midianites fully reaped what they had sown.
wandering,
Do you really think that is the best an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being can do – indiscriminate action.
Bob seems to have hopes that you will recover from religion. He is an optimist and you should be grateful for his attention to your condition.
Haha.
Good ones.
That guy has never said a positive, kind or nice statement in the 100's of posts I've seen him make. It is all doom and hate.
False. Take the trouble to learn to use a site search, lazy coward Dalahast, and you will find many positive comments that I have made.
Haha. I love Bob. I knew he would return with something hateful. Mwah!
Again, coward Dalahast cannot respond with any substance in support of his sicko religious delusion. No surprise there, from that cowardly dodger.
The irony.
If you would only hold yourself to the same standard you judge others by.
Coward Dalahast, as usual, you cannot reply with any substance, and can only continue your personal attacks. No surprise there.
Right back at you, Bob.
What the heck is there to cower from? You parroting the godhatesamputees.com website? I've addressed your opinions on the matter. How is that being a coward?
Dalahäst,
So far, you seem to be are cowering from answering my questions.
I tried to answer your questions. Sorry if I didn't do it to your satisfaction.
Bob is a tool, a tool of the devil.
And you are a troll, freeloading in your mom's basement because you are too lazy to get a job.
While we've got Bob dumping bile on us by the truckload from his book of nasty, let's take a look at some of the vicious guidances that are really in there purportedly from his vicious heart. From both foul posts, and note the text following the quotes:
contains such nasty guidances as these, according to Bob’s book of nasty AKA his heart?
dumping
bile
nasty
vicious
foul
Note that Bob is also very clear that he thinks you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Bob sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, Bob really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in his post, look it up. Yes, Bob purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if he thinks the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your Bob couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a post that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic Bob that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the Bobs that man has created.
(Lev. 1:9 “Its [bull] entrails, however, and its legs he shall wash with water And the priest shall offer up in smoke all of it on the altar for a burnt offering, an offering by fire of a soothing aroma to the Lord.”
Did God's love for the smell of burning sacrifices change between Testaments?
Lev. 1:6-9.
6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
7 And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
8 And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
“But to what purpose,” would some say, “was this waste? Why should all this good meat, which might have been given to the poor, and have served their hungry families for food a great while, be burnt together to ashes?” So was the will of God; and it is not for us to object or to find fault with it. When it was burnt for the honour of God, in obedience to his command, and to signify spiritual blessings, it was really better bestowed, and better answered the end of its creation, than when it was used as food for man. We must never reckon that lost which is laid out for God. The burning of the sacrifice signified the sharp sufferings of Christ, and the devout affections with which, as a holy fire, Christians must offer up themselves their whole spirit, soul, and body, unto God. 8. This is said to be an offering of a sweet savour, or savour of rest, unto the Lord. The burning of flesh is unsavoury in itself; but this, as an act of obedience to a divine command, and a type of Christ, was well pleasing to God: he was reconciled to the offerer, and did himself take a complacency in that reconciliation. He rested, and was refreshed with these inst.itutions of his grace, as, at first, with his works of creation (Exod. 31:17), rejoicing therein, Ps. 104:31. Christ’s offering of himself to God is said to be of a sweet-smelling savour (Eph. 5:2), and the spiritual sacrifices of Christians are said to be acceptable to God, through Christ, 1 Pet. 2:5.
Matthew Henry’s Commentary
Christ’s offering of himself to God is said to be of a sweet-smelling savour (Eph. 5:2), and the spiritual sacrifices of Christians are said to be acceptable to God, through Christ, 1 Pet. 2:5.
So Christ offered himself to himself. Ok.
Makes perfect sense.
Robert Brown,
"So was the will of God; and it is not for us to object or to find fault with it."
That was a really weak and blind answer. Point to Bob.
Bucky,
As a lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Observer,
From a natural perspective, I see what you mean. It has been a few years since Mr. Henry wrote his commentary, but I get what he is saying.
If there is a God who created all we can perceive, who are we to question his will?
Presupposes the concept of "sacrifice". Humans cooked up the concept of "sacrifice" to try to control the gods. It doesn't work. John changed the day of Jebus' death, (from the synoptic gospels" to support the idea he was the "paschal lamb". Thanks for reminding us of that fact.
It STILL makes no sense. It demonstrates that your deity is SUBJECT to Reality, not it's master, OR it could have just said "I forgive you".
Bucky,
The son was with the father before creation.
John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, ….. us and our
OR it could have just said "I forgive you".
Kind of like people do?
Robert Brown
"If there is a God who created all we can perceive, who are we to question his will?"
Answer: Logical, intelligent people who try to maximize usage of the brain that God supposedly gave us.
I don't know if you meant that as just a joke (if not that ironically wasn't a very logical or intelligent statement), but what about all the logical, intelligent people who do believe in God?
Dalahäst,
Not a joke at all. There are logical and intelligent Christians like in any group.
Unfortunately, the Christian explanation for things that make no sense at all, is often that you aren't supposed to do any thinking, but just accept the magic of God. They proudly recite verses from the Bible saying that wise people aren't actually wise. It's not much of an endorsement for Christianity, but they like it.
A lot of the explanations non-Christians on this blog give are not that intelligent or make that much sense, either. I know they say it does. And will belittle anyone who doubts their opinions or understandings. But it is not like they are rocket scientists or brain surgeons themselves. Often they are just anonymous message board posters with a grudge against viewpoints that doesn't match theirs. They definitely don't act like most of the logical or intelligent people I've met in my life.
Dalahäst,
I agree. The level of respect on here needs to greatly increase. There is no excuse for the rudeness and name-calling.
You have expressed your objections about non-believers on here, so I'll talk about some of the believers. Just like the others irritate them with their comments, it works both ways. Give a thought sometime to what it's like to talk to people who insist, for instance, that the word "forever" means "for a fixed period of time which in some cases is over" or that "vengeance" does not mean "punishment". The "elephant in the room" is that unless you do exactly as Christians insist the Bible says, then you are such a terrible person that you deserve to spend eternity in hell. It's pretty hard to top that for an insult.
Oh, I know. I'm not that logical or intelligent myself all the time. Really, nobody is. Some, especially those that display some self-restraint and respect for others, seem to fit that bill in my opinion (regardless of what their personal beliefs entail). But I just can't seem to grasp the idea that most Christians avoid thinking or don't have well thought out arguments for their beliefs. I don't agree with what all Christians believe. But that doesn't make them stupid. Nor does it make anyone who oppose them smart. Which seems to be the mindset a few of the very vocal posters on here possess.
Dalahäst,
My argument is not that Christians are stupid, but that they often try to explain nonsense by claiming we shouldn't try to be logical and apply intelligence.
Here is an example from this thread which triggered my comments:
“But to what purpose,” would some say, “was this waste? Why should all this good meat, which might have been given to the poor, and have served their hungry families for food a great while, be burnt together to ashes?” So was the will of God; and it is not for us to object or to find fault with it.
I never saw him say you shouldn't be logical or apply intelligence though.
Dalahäst,
Try to apply LOGIC and INTELLIGENCE to that and NOT find any FAULT when God needs to have animals slaughtered in order to prove to him what people had in their hearts, since he apparently DIDN'T KNOW.
I'm not sure your explanation on it is the only or even the most logical and intelligent explanation.
Dalahäst,
Christians insist that God knows everything that EVERYONE does and what is in EVERYONE's heart.
Now please use ALL of your LOGIC and INTELLIGENCE to explain why sacrificing animals so God can enjoy the aroma to prove something he is SUPPOSED to already know is better than saving the innocent animal or feeding it to those who are dying of starvation at that same time? Let's see you use all your logic and intelligence and FAIL to come up with something that shows you can find ANYTHING to OBJECT to or FIND FAULT with.
Of course I've used logic and intelligence to try and understand this. So have thousands and thousands of people before me. And logic and intelligence does not lead everyone to the same conclusion you have presented.
It is hard for me to relate to that passage. I don't feel compelled at all to sacrifice an animal for my sins. I think things have changed over the millennia that makes it hard for me to understand what God was up to.
This was a law for followers of a different religion than I belong to who lived in a different society than I lived in. One I and others can't completely understand, but instead speculate about.
Isn't the premise that the bigger the sin, the bigger the sacrifice God would ask people to give to the temple? It must have been hard to sacrifice an animal – the livelihood of those people.
And why at times did God instruct to NOT sacrifice animals?
And what if this is not just about God being omniscient and knowing a person's heart? What if knowing the people's heart – God asked for sacrifices to help them?
"When a person sacrificed an animal they were meant to see that blood. They were meant to see the blood and realize the cost of their actions. They were supposed to realize what it meant to have blood on their hands. Because of something selfish they did, something died! The blood was meant to teach their heart about the cost of their sin."
– http://keltonburgpreacher.wordpress.com/2012/07/13/why-did-god-require-animals-to-be-sacrificed/
I do have a better understanding of the sacrifices Jesus asks us to make. And the fact that his followers stated that taking care of the starving people, poor and orphaned in this world is very important.
Dalahäst,
Yep. Nothing there to OBJECT TO or find FAULT with. Tough luck to all the starving people, but God does love the smell of burning flesh.
I'm sure that after animals were cramped in tiny quarters and bounced around on the flood waters for a year, it was fitting that the first act God wanted when the pitiful animals got onto land again was to sacrifice them for their smell. Nothing there to object to. I'm sure that taught Noah a lesson.
I didn't say there wasn't anything to object to or find fault with. I have a very skeptical nature. So of course I've considered the points you have brought up. But it isn't the only points to consider or accept. You can speculate what it would be like to be all-knowing, but that doesn't logically or intellectually mean you understand – especially in regards to human nature – what it entails to change a man or woman who is self-centered, selfish and arrogant. Which is a condition people had back then, and still do today. And I don't think we will ever be immune from it in the future.
I'm sure there are some sacrifices you can make in your life that can help those who are starving today, right? Why not focus on that?
Dalahäst
"I didn't say there wasn't anything to object to or find fault with."
Good. Now we are back to my original example where that comment was made by a Christian quoting another Christian. My whole point was that this is a frequent answer to questions for Christians.
Right. But logic and intelligence does not lead exclusively to your conclusion. The author was writing about people who knew God and were trying, and often failing, to live up to the ideals God desires. And what God desired was for them to "“Love your neighbor as yourself”. They choose to make these sacrifices to make up for the harms they caused, because they often failed to live up to those ways.
A writer in the NT went on to explain it like this:
"and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is much more than all whole burnt-offerings and sacrifices."
Dalahäst,
"Love thy neighbor" had NOTHING to do with the poor animals that endured the horrors of being cooped up on a tiny boat for a year and then sacrificed as soon as they got a chance to walk around again. But at least they smelled good.
Here is an example of somebody using logic and intelligence to address the concerns Bob has with some of those verses he highlighted.
http://www.paulcopan.com/books/files/Are-old-testament-laws-evil_God-is-great.pdf
That is just more hand waving defence of some horrid stuff that is plainly in your evil doctrine. Again, take a look at the direct quotes, and the following text: The vengeance and horror of the evil Christian sky fairy is very clear, in both foul testaments of the Christian book of horrors AKA the bible:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
great job Robert, thank you.
in reality, I don't read Bob's long and overly repeated diatribes.
new-man,
In spite of Bob's rudeness, why don't you respond to his quotes DIRECTLY from the Bible?
Why do you just PICK-and-choose from the Bible?
seems to me if I'm choosing to respond from the appropriate covenant we have with God, then I am in fact quoting DIRECTLY from the Bible.
I am not under the law. If you wish to debate the law then do it with someone who doesn't know which covenant they're under.
new-man,
Was the God who gave us a LONG list of reasons to kill people the same PERFECT and UNCHANGING God that is in the New Testament?
observer,
of course He's the same God, and I know where you're going with this so let me just set you straight.
As mentioned above, the covenant/agreement God had with the children of Israel was one in which they chose to be judged by their goodness and not by God's grace and mercy-as we currently have. They told Moses to tell God, "ALL that you command, we will do" so when they didn't keep their part of the covenant, God is bound by His words and in turn has to keep His part of the covenant.
Have you asked yourself, how is it that Cain killed Abel, yet God protected Cain. See, they weren't under the Mosaic Law (which of course was not yet agreed to).
My point is, you have to read the Bible, then read it again, this time you should know how the plot and how the story ends, so now all the scenes should open up to you to reveal a more unified picture.
new-man
"Have you asked yourself, how is it that Cain killed Abel, yet God protected Cain."
Yes, The "perfect" and "unchanging" God changed his mind on how MURDERERS should be dealt with.
New man, thanks. Just kidding around with Bob. I don't think he can help it.
I used to think he was a bot. Programmed by that anti-theist website to spam religious board with copy/pastes of their packaged messages. But then he started to get personal with his attacks. Yikes.
As usual, Brown and Dalahast can only respond with ad hominems. They have no valid case that they can make in support of their foul, bigoted Christian religion, and no valid rebuttal to my points above. No surprise there.
One step in getting the others on this blog to take you seriously might start with you not making so many ad hominems yourself.
Take your own advice, coward Dalahast. Stop your usual cowardly dodging and attacks, and try instead to address the points that I have made above using direct quotes from the nasty Christian holy book. If you cannot stop making personal attacks, then just SHUSH.
Anytime I try to engage in a conversation you just start insulting me and declaring yourself the winner of the argument.
No, coward, Dalahast, and again you are dodging rather than addressing the original points. It is the norm for you, and I am not surprised. Generally, it has been yourself who has started the personal attacks. You are a coward and a dodger.
The original point of this thread is that you are just as nasty acting as the book you declare is so nasty.
It is not the first time somebody has pointed that out to us.
Why do you post the exact same thing over and over? And when anyone attempts to engage in a conversation with them you start acting like a bully – telling them to either stop questioning you or declaring they are a coward?
Ask questions?
Your statement is false as usual, coward Dalahast. My posts above are clearly not violent in their intent, but do directly quote just a few of the many instructions to do terrible violence that are in your horrid holy book purportedly from your "god". It is your own (man-made) doctrine that is obviously far more nasty than my comments are.
Right.
Those quotes are in the Bible. Nobody I know is trying to take them out. Or deny that they exist. Nor do I know anybody that suggests they are instructions for us to do terrible violence. In fact I've found people in a community that actually preach intentional kindness. And to do things like love our enemies and turn the other cheek. And I've seen these people actually carry this out. Which isn't easy in my opinion. Being intolerant and rude to others is easy in my opinion. Anyone can do that.
I've never seen them advocate violence. I've seen some sacrifice their livelihood and safety to ensure others are protected from terrible violence. I've seen them be a blessing to my community – not to just those who share their faith but to those who disagree with them, too.
I've seen people acknowledge those quotes exist. But offer a different understanding that you do. And they do it in a respectful and mature manner.
James 1:27
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."
Matthew 5:9
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God"
Good progress for you to acknowledge the existence of that evil guidance purportedly from your nasty "god". Now, regarding interpretation issues, I have already addressed that, so get back to your goat sacrifice or your nasty god will whup your lazy cowardly ass.
Again, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Uh, no.
There are logical and intelligent explanations to your simplistic and hostile reaction to select verses in the OT.
No, coward Dalahast, and again you can present no such case as you claim, as usual.Those quotes are quite explicit regarding instructions purportedly from your "god", that nasty sky fairy of yours, and they make very plain how murderous and revengeful your doctrine is:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
I'm afraid this is true, Dalahast. There are methods by which a believer can find other sentences or segments in the same book that will achieve the meaning for which they are looking when the apparent meaning is not satisfactory. Sometimes this can take a long time to apply such a method.
It is hard to take anyone seriously who presents such a closed-minded argument. Especially when a person suggests we should ask questions – but if you question him he has a fit and resorts to name calling and starts spamming the blog with packaged answers from godhatesamputees.com.
Some other atheists pointed out to me that some on here are suffering from personal issues. Perhaps Bob is unaware that he is nastier than what he says God is.
I know he will reply with me being a coward. And then copy and paste his same packaged answer.
But anyone can do that. That is easy.
It is hard to be kind to others. I wish Bob could demonstrate a better way.
No, coward Dalahast. I am rather obviously not as nasty as your own doctrine specifically states that your own ass hole in the sky that you worship is, as these quotes direct from your mythbook regarding your excessively violent and vengeful, bigoted sky fairy plainly show:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
While we've got new-man dumping bible bile on us by the truckload from his Christian book of nasty, let's take a look at some of the vicious guidances that are really in there purportedly from his vicious sky fairy "god". From both foul testaments, and note the text following the quotes:
contains such nasty guidances as these, according to your Christian book of nasty AKA the bible?
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Why are you such an angry hateful individual? I see nothing unrighteous or evil amongst the verses you quoted. If you were really earnest in trying to understand the verses i would gladly try to help you. As it is you don't really desire to know the truth and in your small evil mind you suppose you can shake someone's faith with your vile hateful crap. You won't.
wandering,
"I see nothing unrighteous or evil amongst the verses you quoted."
Really? Slavery is fine by you? Honor killing is fine by you?
The Importance of Jesus’ Words
As certain ‘teachers’ seek to cast doubt on the Scriptures in order to make room for their personal doctrinal preferences, I’m coming across a number of posts and articles that encourage believers to discard the words of Jesus. Jesus’ ministry is labeled as a ‘law ministry’ and not relevant to New Covenant believers.
While I understand and agree with the idea of rightly dividing the Word of God, and I understand the topic of covenants, to rightly divide does not mean to wrongly subtract Jesus’ words from our belief system.
All of Jesus’ words can be and should be included in our gospel message. While certain statements are obviously directed to the law keeping of the time, beneath every statement lies a spiritual truth that can give life. Consider the following:
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God (Jn. 3:34)
….the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (Jn. 6:63)
Words that are spirit and life have no expiration date!
….He that is of God hears God's words (Jn. 8:47)
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words (Jn. 14:23)
When we consider that the option was to continue to keep the law of Moses, this statement becomes quite relevant. Do you love Him? Do you love His words?
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. (Mt. 4:4)
If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done unto you. (Jn. 15:7)
Has this promised been annulled? Are Jesus’ words no longer worthy of our time and meditation?
For I have given unto them the words which You gave me (Jn. 17:8)
Jesus final prayer in the Garden emphasized the importance of His words for the sake of reaching the world.
I have given them Your word…..Sanctify them through Your truth: Your word is truth. As You have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. (John 17)
The words that Jesus’ spoke were God’s words, the truth that sanctifies. The disciples are then sent into the world with these God words that are Spirit and life.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you (Mt. 28:19-20)
A gospel that doesn’t teach Jesus’ words is NOT the gospel.
Pastor Barry Bennett
While we've got new-man dumping bible bile on us from his Christian book of nasty AKA the bible, let's take a look at some of the vicious guidances that are in there purportedly from his vicious sky fairy "god". From both foul testaments, and note the text following the quotes:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
God loves you Bob. You are worth His only Son Christ Jesus. When you have a revelation of how much God loves His beloved Son, you will come into the awesome revelation of how much God truly loves you.
"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1Co 6:20)
I understand how to glorify God in my body. This refers to my willingness to subdue the flesh and live by the Spirit of God. But how do we glorify God in our spirits? Are we not one spirit with Him? (1 Cor. 6:17)
Men are spiritual beings. Even those who do not know God have a spirit.
The spirit of a man is the lamp of the Lord, Searching all the inner depths of his heart. (Prov. 20:27)
Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him. (Zech. 12:1)
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? (1 Cor. 2:11)" P. BB
new-man, the whole Jesus-sacrifice thing, the foundation of your sick delusions, is a steaming pile of bull-do out of the gate. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Often what people post reveal more about themselves than the others they ridicule. I'm not the first to notice or suggest that Bob sounds like a lonely and troubled guy. I've never seen him display any kind of kindness, respect or love for others. Zero. Nothing. What a sad way to live. What do you say to someone that is that troubled?
Dalahast,
great point/observation.
as I said to Tallulah yesterday, the words one speaks comes from what's in their heart.
I would still say the same to Bob and keep saying it until he gets a revelation that God is love. God is not his enemy. God loves you Bob so much, He wants your thoughts to be focused on His goodness, love and mercy instead of upon self as the quickest way to depression, self-hatred is when one's thoughts are turned inward to self.
Bob: my comment to you is why do you think Jesus had to come as a man- a human being. Nothing God does is without significance.
I hope he gets better. It does get better. Anyone I've known with that much anger and bitterness had some trouble bigger than what they were lashing out at others about.
As usual, cowardly Dalahast can only respond with ad hominems. As always, he has no valid case that he can make in support of his foul, bigoted Christian religion, and no valid rebuttal to my points above. No surprise there. Dalahast, do the world a favor and google 'ad hominem', and read up on it for a few years before you bother us again.
I do hope you get better.
I'm familiar with ad hominems. You do realize you commit them yourself, right?
Us? Are there like 2 or 3 of you posting under "Bob"? Who is "us"?
Two wrongs do not make a right, coward Dalahast. It is clear that you have no valid case to make for your beliefs. Now get back to your goat sacrifice, as your bible plainly demands of you to please your vicious, vengeful sky fairy.
Dalahäst,
Wouldn't it be better if you actually responded to Bob's quotes from the Bible rather than try to change subjects and IGNORE what the Bible says?
Observer,
You have to be completely blind to not see Bob has no interest in a reasonable conversation. I have, and I have observed others, try and discuss the points he brings up. And instead of engaging in a mature, reasonable discussion, he dodges any questions. He copies and pastes the exact same thing over and over. I've tried responding to those exact same packaged answers he posts. And all I get in return is called a coward and derogatory names.
Most reasonable atheists distance themselves from him. For a good reason. I'm surprised his tactics don't bother you. Try posting other a different name and respond to the quotes he posted. Unless you sound like a hostile anti-theist he will just be disrespectful and rude toward you for failing to see his viewpoint on the matter. I'm surprised you haven't observed that by now.
Well Dalahast, to return to the original point, the whole Jesus died for us sins saga doesn't make a lot of sense. God makes the rules, so why demand a sacrifice of oneself to oneself to forgive the original sin of a couple everybody knows never even existed? At its core, Christianity is a pretty silly, childish fairy tale.
Not necessarily. First, Bob is guilty of doing what many accuse Christians of doing – cherry-picking quotes (often out of context) to make his point. You can call it a silly, childish fairy tale. But not everybody sees it that way. I know you feel very strongly that it is. I disagree with you. Anytime I've disagreed with you or Bob you return with venom and hate. I just can't help but wonder why no reasonable or rational people I've ever met in life act or behave like you two. It seems like there is something deeper going on that you either can't or won't see about yourself.
Again, my post addresses your cherry-picking claims, and again, two wrongs don't make a right, coward Dalahast.
If you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Dalahäst,
I have OBSERVED many of the things you said about Bob. In spite of his numerous times of cutting-and-pasting, I've yet to OBSERVE a really good answer. I've seen responses that basically amount to saying "the terrible things God did were in the Old Testament and so they don't count". I've seen responses that say that the long list of reasons to kill people and the subsequent TOTAL repeal of them are not a CHANGE by God. I've even seen responses that say that when God said that killing people who worked on the Sabbath was "FOREVER", but it just meant "for a fixed time".
Let's see if everyone can OBSERVE a good answer from you in regard to EXACT QUOTES from the Bible that Bob (rudely or not) listed.
I've seen good responses. I guess it is up to each person to judge for themselves the understanding that works best for them.
I've seen bad responses, too. Again, I've got to decide for myself.
I tend to think that Bob is really not interested in a discussion on the matter. Why does he just ridicule anyone who asks questions? I honestly tried to engage in a mature manner with him. I just haven't seen him ever act like a decent human. Most of his posts he is being demanding.
I really don't see the difference between how he posts and how Salero posts. In fact even other atheists have made comments that admit some atheists have the same mindsets as the religious fanatics. And that it is dangerous and short-sighted to live that way.
Regardless of what side of the issue a person stands – how they treat others who disagree with them is important. I'm thankful for the reasonable atheists that do post on this blog. They bring a refreshing viewpoint – one that those who routinely post the same packaged answers over and over (which is basically spam, especially when one promotes a website) and are quick to demean others... well, I wish they would emulate those reasonable posters on here. It would be better for everyone.
Dalahäst
"In fact even other atheists have made comments that admit some atheists have the same mindsets as the religious fanatics. And that it is dangerous and short-sighted to live that way."
Agreed.
One difference between Bob and Salero, however, is that Bob posts ACTUAL QUOTES from the Bible and Salero often posts nothing but an insult. It would be nice to see responses that are deeper than the usual "that's from the Old Testament and so it doesn't count".
It is quite relevant to point out that Bob is posting his verses out of context and implying things that are not taught in all churches. Some of those verses are in the Bible for a reason. And it is not to instruct people to be nasty to each other.
Do you find it at all ironic that Bob is just as nasty as he professes the Bible to be? I would be more impressed if he could demonstrate with his actions and words he is better. Most Christians I've met are at least kinder and respectful, which makes them capable of engaging in a conversation with others.
The unfortunate part is when trying to explain my point of view he seems to have a temper tantrum if I don't agree with his understanding.
Again, I have seen some atheists oppose him. Just in the same way the oppose Salero's tactics and choices to engage in conversation in others.
I've also seen some atheists display a double standard. Ignoring the logical flaws and shortcomings of their fellow atheists, while leaping out of their seat to attack anyone who happens to believe in God.
Dalahäst
"It is quite relevant to point out that Bob is posting his verses out of context and implying things that are not taught in all churches."
This is another frequent cop-out for Christians. It's the old "out of context" switcheroo.
Let's take Bob's first DIRECT QUOTE from the Bible: "Numbers 31:17-18 17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
Please explain the CONTEXT here. Was this an "accurate" quote or was the Bible actually trashing God's #1 man and mouth-piece Moses who said it? That's basically what Bob, however rudely, was pointing out.
I don't think it is necessarily a cop out. A lot of the verses are taken out of context.
The Bible is honest. It doesn't sugar coat things. It describes people as they were – warts and all. I don't get to cut out parts of the Bible I don't like. But I don't hide from them. We discuss them in our communities of faith. And I always see people troubled by them. We admit we are troubled by them. And often are encouraged to discuss and question these things.
This story is about humans when they were still fairly primitive. And war was a way of life. At times it was a kill or be killed world. And in that story God is trying to keep Israel separate from other nations. And other nations are trying to destroy Israel.
Look at our nation, The United States, has fought in many wars. And has shed the blood of many innocent people. That troubles me. And I can only imagine it troubled people in those days, too. Or maybe not as much. I don't know.
But one thing is clear in the NT. We are to love our enemy. Jesus did something that changed our world. And God is raising us to be people who act out of love.
I don't really know what the purpose of those verses are teaching for sure. It is unclear to me. But in Jesus the nature of God and His will are more clear to me. And it is clear I'm not living by those old laws, of those old people in that old time.
Like in Leviticus it clearly says to love your neighbor. When somebody asked Jesus who there neighbor was, he told them it included their enemies and those who intend to do them harm.
Dalahäst
"The Bible is honest. It doesn't sugar coat things. It describes people as they were – warts and all."
So the Bible is full of stories that are presented as how to live your life and stories showing how NOT to live your life and yet make NO OFFICIAL distinctions. Not one word from God saying which story is right and which is wrong. Just use your OWN morals and decide for yourself.
Interesting.
No. That was not the point I was trying to make. But I'm not surprised you would take it that way.
Dalahast is a coward and will never respond directly to any challenge. You can see his dodging again and again above. His Christian doctrine is so explicitly violent and vengeful that his dodging and that of others is what is required to defend it, when it contains such explicit instruction for violence and bigotry as these direct quotes plainly show:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
I make every attempt possible to address questions and concerns brought to my attention.
I have no idea how you have concluded I NEVER respond directly to any challenge. Seems a bit of an exaggeration. And ironically you often ignore questions and concerns brought to you.
Yet again, cowardly dodger Dalahast is unable to respond with any substance. No surprise there.
There is nothing you do that demonstrates courage or bravery, though.
Why should anyone take you seriously?
I have still yet to see any reasonable person on here come to your defense. I've had atheists, even ones I disagree with, come to my defense on this blog. They painted a different picture of me than the one you keep demanding is true.
Do you seriously think you are some kind of threat? Or that you put fear into anyone? You are anonymous poster on an opinion blog. There is nothing that indicates you are a credible source or a reliable source of information.
Relax. This is an opinion blog. Look at how others, the more reasonable atheists, engage in conversation. I guarantee you your message will come across better to others if you show respect to them.
It is easy to call others a coward, dodger and others names. Anyone can do that.
Bob, I agree with you 100%.
Nobody is surprised by that Ace.
Dalahäst
"But I'm not surprised you would take it that way."
Since you did NOT address the real questions, I will restate them.
Numbers 31:17-18 says "17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
Was this taken out of CONTEXT?
Was this given as an example of someone's "warts and all" but NEVER criticized in the Bible? If it was wrong at the time, did God say "Hey guys, wait. WAIT. My main man Moses just screwed up. Don't believe him."? If it was wrong, how do we know that WITHOUT God teaching us those "morals"?
So what is the story behind the quote from Bob from the Bible? Waiting for an actual answer.
Yea, I tried to explain it.
This was about a nation that was determined to destroy Israel. Did you read what happened before this? What was this nation doing?
Who said this was a story about teaching morals?
Dalahäst,
Do you agree with God and Moses that women can be a PRIZE of war?
women were never a prize in war according to Moses and God....that's your misconception of the war executed by the Jews...sems you wanna say all wars are alike...they ar enot
I don't believe women should be a prize of war.
I also don't like how you ask loaded questions like that. If you want to debate, fine. But isn't asking questions in that manner is an example of a logical fallacy? The loaded question fallacy?
kermit4jc,
The women were kept as PRIZES of war.
Is English a foreign language for you? Do you have a major reading comprehension problem?
according to rhe BIble they wer NOT kept as a prize....English IS my language I speak...however..I also use CONTEXT of culture...according to the Bible, women were never seen as a prize to be won.....read gensis 1 about Adam and eve..noting about having a prize...it is YOU who misuse context of CULTURE....
Dalahäst
"I don't believe women should be a prize of war.
I also don't like how you ask loaded questions like that".
I fully understand why you don't like questions that show how disgusting God can be.
it shows how disgusting your ignorance of context is obserer
kermit4jc,
The women were KEPT as PRIZES for the use of the winning male soldiers. What did you think the men would do with them?
Get into the REAL world. Start telling yourself the TRUTH instead of just making things up.
see..here you are making a silly assumption without context..again to the JEWS (not the world as a whole, which you dishonestly try to inject) sought marriage as IMIratant and sacred...and women as EQUAL (again look at Gensius 1...men and women BOTH made in image of God.thus BOTH equal...so no one is a prie...again you are ignorant of CULTURE>..you seem tro refuse to look into context..why you scaed of truth? yes..in the REAL world thT DOES happen..but that does NOT mena it happens at every instance as you wrongflully asume
show me the word "prize" in the passages...prove to me they are a prize
observer
I think you are being quick to jump to conclusions about me. And again, I've been trying to discuss this with you. Why the insults?
Are you sure there aren't any other understandings or explanations that are just as valid as the ones you and Bob are preaching?
kermit4jc,
So Jewish men would NEVER take advantage of a virgin that they were given possession of?
lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol. lol.
uhhh..two thins..firstof all.....the COMMAND is different from REACTION you fool! My God yo uare so dense..first of all...the men were to {ROTECT the women...see to it they are cared for...(remember, the soceities which those women lived in did not allow them freedom-IM referring to the Canannite soceities-the very ones who molested their own children and burned them alive for their gods...The Jews saved them from this atrocity and siought to see they are cared for..the men did not have to marry the virgins..but can give them away in marriage....those times were NOT like TODAYS times..so stop pretending that..and make a better attempt to get the context and being ignorant and inserting your own biases
Dalahäst,
I have told you repeatedly that I don't agree with Bob's rudeness.
Now what "insult" did you claim I made towards you?
kermit4jc,
"the COMMAND is different from REACTION you fool!"
It's likely that Jesus wasn't referring to ONLY siblings.
(Matt. 5:22) "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with their brother or sister will be in danger of judgment. If they say to their brother or sister, ‘You idiot,’ they will be in danger of being condemned by the governing council. And if they say, ‘You fool,’ they will be in danger of fiery hell.” - Jesus
I don't want you to go to a fiery hell, so please READ a Bible.
nice..why don't yo look up the word "fool" and then also read REST of the passage (YOU told me to read the BIble?) and see what exactly jesus was referring to about fools....don't presume to try to teach me something you don't know about...thanks (I STUDIED the Bible for over 28 years-not merely read it) and I taught it for 15 + years)
kermit4jc,
"And if they say, ‘You FOOL’ they will be in danger of fiery hell.” – Jesus
Unreliable source? Was he lying?
tell me oh wise one...what is Jesus talking about....what is the passage referring to, who was Jesus talking to and why did he say such? do you know? did you read the full passage, or are you too lazy and just wanna cherry pick? make your choice..Ill wait
Your loaded questions. And then following it up with your presumption I just don't like your questions, because the argument you are making is right. Your reasoning seems circular.
You are familiar with the different arguments and understandings in regards to that passage, right? You are free to check out other sources other than GODHATESAMPUTEES.com and see what others say. I've met atheists that don't agree with what GODHATESAMPUTEES.com says – there are different understandings available.
I don't have all the answers. I appreciate people who want to talk about these things. But when people start making accusations and try to lead me into their questions to make a point I wasn't trying to make – it is tough to take the conversation serious.
Dalahäst
"But when people start making accusations and try to lead me into their questions to make a point I wasn't trying to make – it is tough to take the conversation serious."
So people should not "try to lead me into their questions to make a point I wasn't trying to make"?
Interesting statement from someone who apparently is proud of their open-mindedness.
kermit4jc,
Did Jesus say there that it was okay to call others "fools"?
Jesus was a myth. He said nothing. Everything that was placed in his mouth, as a literary device, was borrowed and stolen from other myths.
Mithra was born on December 25th of the virgin Anahita.
The babe was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and attended by shepherds.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or "disciples."
He performed miracles.
As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
Mithra ascending to heaven in his solar cart, with sun symbolHe ascended to heaven.
Mithra was viewed as the Good Shepherd, the "Way, the Truth and the Light," the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah.
Mithra is omniscient, as he "hears all, sees all, knows all: none can deceive him."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper."
Mithra "sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers."
Mithraism emphasized baptism.
if you wish to be taken seriously, and retain even a gram of credibility you would have at least conceded that Jesus did in fact exist.
that you can boldly say Jesus was myth renders you totally clueless and woefully ridiculous.
it's one thing to say YOU do not believe Jesus exists but to declare the existence of Jesus as a myth-Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [a]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
Thanks for a perfect string of non-sequiturs.
There is not a shred of evidence Jesus existed, apart from the testimony of those who already believed in him.
The Church Fathers admitted they valued deception, and accused each other of it.
Dr. Richard Carrier (PhD Columbia) is taken very seriously. He does not buy that Jesus existed.
How would you know the difference between him and all the other dying, rising, and miracle -working deities of the day ?
It is possible, maybe even plausible that Jesus actually existed as a person. But since there isn't an ounce of contemporary evidence to prove it, one cannot honestly say for certain that Jesus existed.
rbb and Tallulah, perhaps you should speak with Reality regarding docu.mentation of Jesus' existence.
rbb, that you would hinge your spiritual life on the words of a fool, is rather foolish.
I always defer to reality (not the poster who uses that name). The truth is found in reality, not in mythology. There are no contemporary accounts of Jesus.
Nor any actual evidence for a divine jesus or any god. Ok look, there's no actual evidence to support religious beliefs at all!
Hey, can you post a link where you got that information from?
I've seen people make those claims before. But haven't been able to find any credible sources to back them up. Apparently some atheist website have been spreading some false info about Mithra.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/06/better-atheist-fact-checking.html
If you can help, thanks!
Dala, Taken as a whole there are plenty of similarities between the various myths. The hebrew god was not the first or only god worshipped in that region. As I believe you have noted before there are flood myths in many cultures, so there's a good chance that those myths were borrowed and embellished. Same with Jesus.
I was just wondering if he had any credible sources to back up all those claims he made. I've never seen anything that shows the Mithra story predated the Christian story with those claims. In fact, it appears those things he listed about Mithra came after writings about Jesus Christ.
Dala, I might buy that if people living at the time hadn't come up with such notions as diabolical mimicry in order to explain why Jesus was so similar to other stories that already existed. If the stories came out after Jesus then they wouldn't have had to do this.
But the similarities the OP listed were not written before Jesus existed. I can't find any thing that shows that. In fact some of the similarities appear to be made up way after the fact.
Dang! I've been looking for over an hour and can't find anything to support those claims.
Any luck on your search?
What I believe is a big part of who I am and it drives me to behave a certain way, including what we might call "good deeds"....I see this as part of who I am because of what I believe.
I see pain, I wish to help heal it. I see need, I wish to help fill it. I see suffering, I wish to ease it.
I have no need to marry that aid to my faith, or to use that need as an avenue to talk about my faith. I find that abhorrent, actually. People in need are vulnerable and using their need to sell them a faith you THINK they need is manipulation.
Do the deed, save the life, pay the bill, whatever. That should be all the statement of faith you need, in my opinion.
Haven't seen you in a while MWW. Hope things are going well for you.
I read more than I post, lunchbreaker...but life is good, busy, but good.
I sometimes get discouraged by the never changing arguments here, and rather than contribute to the vitriol coming from so many regardless of label, choose to remain silent.
Yes. Help others. And treat them as equals. If they want to know more about you and ask, then let them know. It works better that way, in my experiences.
Yes, Dala, it does.
Live your faith, let others live theirs. Let your actions be your message. It will mean more than your words ever can.
"I am not going to talk about religious beliefs, but about matters so obvious that it has gone out of style to mention them."
"I believe in my neighbors."
"I know their faults and I know that their virtues far outweigh their faults. Take Father Michael down our road a piece –I'm not of his creed, but I know the goodness and charity and loving kindness that shine in his daily actions. I believe in Father Mike; if I'm in trouble, I'll go to him. My next-door neighbor is a veterinary doctor. Doc will get out of bed after a hard day to help a stray cat. No fee – no prospect of a fee. I believe in Doc."
"I believe in my townspeople. You can knock on any door in our town say, 'I'm hungry,' and you will be fed. Our town is no exception; I've found the same ready charity everywhere. For the one who says, 'To heck with you – I got mine,' there are a hundred, a thousand, who will say, 'Sure, pal, sit down.'
I believe in my fellow citizens. Our headlines are splashed with crime, yet for every criminal there are 10,000 honest decent kindly men. If it were not so, no child would live to grow up, business could not go on from day to day. Decency is not news; it is buried in the obituaries –but it is a force stronger than crime."
"I believe in the patient gallantry of nurses...in the tedious sacrifices of teachers. I believe in the unseen and unending fight against desperate odds that goes on quietly in almost every home in the land."
"I believe in the honest craft of workmen. Take a look around you. There never were enough bosses to check up on all that work. From Independence Hall to the Grand Coulee Dam, these things were built level and square by craftsmen who were honest in their bones."
"I believe that almost all politicians are honest. For every bribed alderman there are hundreds of politicians, low paid or not paid at all, doing their level best without thanks or glory to make our system work. If this were not true, we would never have gotten past the thirteen colonies."
"I believe in Rodger Young. You and I are free today because of endless unnamed heroes from Valley Forge to the Yalu River."
"And finally, I believe in my whole race. Yellow, white, black, red, brown –in the honesty, courage, intelligence, durability....and goodness.....of the overwhelming majority of my brothers and sisters everywhere on this planet. I am proud to be a human being. I believe that we have come this far by the skin of our teeth, that we always make it just by the skin of our teeth –but that we will always make it....survive....endure. I believe that this hairless embryo with the aching, oversize brain case and the opposable thumb, this animal barely up from the apes, will endure –will endure longer than his home planet, will spread out to the other planets, to the stars, and beyond, carrying with him his honesty, his insatiable curiosity, his unlimited courage –and his noble essential decency."
"This I believe with all my heart." ~ Robert Heinlein
…“What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:28–29
Nothing To Do, Only Believe
When I was a young Christian, I attended a seminar on what we must do to “work the works of God”. I was told that we had to pray more, fast more, know our enemy and so on. I came away from the seminar confused. Then one day, I found the same question in the Bible. But the answer was very different!
In the Gospel of John, we find Jesus being asked the same question by the multi.tude who had been awed by His miracles—“What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” The people had seen Jesus healing the sick, and feeding 5,000 men with only five loaves and two fish.
Notice how Jesus answered them: “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” My friend, the greatest doing is believing—believing in Jesus the sent one, who has done it all for you at the cross!
JPM
As noted previously, John's gospel is historically nil. Details previously presented.
Heinlein works existed... Jesus' existence and his magic acts are questionable/dubious at best
Jesus' existence has been shown via extensive docu-mentation and reviews of said docu-ments by many scholars. Details were previously presented. The miracles of Jesus however fail rigorous historic review.
Reviews by theologians should not be considered creditable sources
what a sad reality, to be corrected by Reality.
Jesus exists! A person who identifies himself as Lucifer's Evil Twin should have at least that basic knowledge.
You know God exists, because you know Jesus exists!
Your denial of "evidence of His existence" doesn't nullify the fact & the truth & the reality of Jesus' existence.
One correction new-man, Jesus (most likely) EXISTED, as in he used to exist (most likely), but he has been dead for some 2,000 years now.
For those looking for the historic Jesus:
1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.
2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
– a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication– and a review of each
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 T-itus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
120-180 Trimorphic Protennoia
120-180 Gospel of Perfection
120-200 Genna Marias
130-140 Marcion
130-150 Aristo of Pella
130-160 Epiphanes On Righteousness
130-160 Ophite Diagrams
130-160 2 Clement
130-170 Gospel of Judas
130-200 Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
140-150 Epistula Apostolorum
140-160 Ptolemy
140-160 Isidore
140-170 Fronto
140-170 Infancy Gospel of James
140-170 Infancy Gospel of Thomas
140-180 Gospel of Truth
150-160 Martyrdom of Polycarp
150-160 Justin Martyr
150-180 Excerpts of Theodotus
150-180 Heracleon
150-200 Ascension of Isaiah
150-200 Interpretation of Knowledge
150-200 Testimony of Truth
150-200 Acts of Peter
150-200 Acts of John
150-200 Acts of Paul
150-200 Acts of Andrew
150-225 Acts of Peter and the Twelve
150-225 Book of Thomas the Contender
150-250 Paraphrase of Shem
150-250 Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra
150-300 Authoritative Teaching
150-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Paul
150-300 Prayer of the Apostle Paul
150-300 Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth
150-300 Melchizedek
150-350 Preaching of Paul
150-350 Epistle to the Laodiceans
150-350 Questions of Mary
150-350 Allogenes, the Stranger
150-350 Hypsiphrone
150-350 Valentinian Exposition
150-350 Act of Peter
150-360 Concept of Our Great Power
150-400 Acts of Pilate
150-400 Anti-Marcionite Prologues
150-400 Dialogue Between John and Jesus
160-170 Tatian's Address to the Greeks
160-180 Claudius Apollinaris
160-180 Apelles
160-180 Julius Cassianus
160-250 Octavius of Minucius Felix
161-180 Acts of Carpus
165-175 Melito of Sardis
165-175 Hegesippus
165-175 Dionysius of Corinth
165-175 Lucian of Samosata
167 Marcus Aurelius
170-175 Diatessaron
170-200 Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony
170-200 Muratorian Canon
170-200 Treatise on the Resurrection
170-220 Letter of Peter to Philip
170-230 Thought of Norea
175-180 Athenagoras of Athens
175-185 Irenaeus of Lyons
175-185 Rhodon
175-185 Theophilus of Caesarea
175-190 Galen
178 Celsus
178 Letter from Vienna and Lyons
180 Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs
180-185 Theophilus of Antioch
180-185 Acts of Apollonius
4. Jesus Database, http://www.faithfutures.o-rg/JDB/intro.html –"The JESUS DATABASE is an online a-nnotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bis-sar24.htm
6. The Jesus Seminar, http://en.wikipedia.o-rg/wiki/Jesus_Seminar
7. http://www.biblicalartifacts.com/items/785509/item785509biblicalartifacts.html – books on the health and illness during the time of the NT
8. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
9.The Gn-ostic Jesus
(Part One in a Two-Part Series on A-ncient and Modern G-nosticism)
by Douglas Gro-othuis: http://www.equip.o-rg/articles/g-nosticism-and-the-g-nostic-jesus/
10. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
Presented on March 18, 1994
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2
11. The Jesus Database- newer site:
wiki.faithfutures.o-rg/index.php?t-itle=Jesus_Database
12. Jesus Database with the example of S-u-pper and Eucharist:
faithfutures.o-rg/JDB/jdb016.html
13. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
mtio.com/articles/bis-sar24.htm
13. http://www.textweek.com/mtlk/jesus.htmm- Historical Jesus Studies
14. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/
15. D-iseases in the Bible:
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_d-iseases_of_the_Bible.html?id=C1YZAAAAYAAJ
16. Religion on- Line (6000 a-rt-ic-les on the hi-story of religion, churches, theologies,
theologians, eth-ics, etc. religion-online.o–rg/
17. The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT n-tgate-way.com/
18 Writing the New Testament- e-xi-sting copies, o–r–al tradition etc.
n-tgat-eway.com/
19. JD Crossan's c-onclusions about the a-uthencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the c-onclusions of other NT e-xege-tes in the last 200 years:
http://wiki.faithfutures.o-rg/index.p-hp?t-itle=Crossan_Inventory
20. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by t-itle with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
21. Luke and Josephus- was there a c-onnection?
in-fidels.o-rg/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html
22. NT and beyond time line:
pbs.o-rg/empires/pe-terandpaul/history/timeline/
23. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm
24. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.
25. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.
27. The books of the following : Professors Gerd Ludemann, Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.
28. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.
29. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus
A summary of the above references:
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
new-man,
Your anti-intellectual Presuppositionalist infantile approach to reality is quite insulting to the human race.
Yet not suprising for a religionist why above all, NEEDS to keep the cognitive dissonance at bay. You do realize by your advice, the Nazis could come to rule again.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei
--------------------------–
For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],
Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [a]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
New man..sorry you are just stringing together a lot of plati-tudes to god and think that it actually means some thing. I do not doubt that you believe it.. but imagine you are talking to a new recruit.. could you re- write that out in plain English in a form that makes sense?
This speech always puts a lump in my throat.
My kid is just at an age where she's starting to explore all the Heinlein juveniles in our library.
While I don't agree with everything he opined in his work, his writing has left an indelible mark on my world view.
Many years ago, I introduced a friend to his writing. She is now an electrical engineer and politician, representing the NDP in her riding and she credits Heinlein as one of her inspirations. When she found a copy of his hard to locate non-fiction book "Take Back Your Government: A Practical Handbook for the Private Citizen Who Wants Democracy to Work" she was kind enough to photocopy the whole thing, page by page, bind it and mail it to me.
Doc- I read every book Heinlein ever wrote before I was 16. 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress', 'The number of the beast', 'Stranger in a Strange Land' and 'Orphan Star' stand out as some of my favorite books to this day. I'm pretty sure 'Have Spacesuit will travel' was the first Heinlein book I ever read.
Of all the science fiction writers, why couldn't it have been Heinlein to start a religion?
I bet his rules would have been cheaper and easier to follow.
A religion created by Douglas Adams... can you imagine?
@Alias
There actually is a Church of All Worlds, based on the precepts in "Stranger in a Strange Land" operating right now in the US, founded by the self described neo-pagan "Oberon Zell Ravenheart".
Heinlein was aware of them, but kept a polite distance.
CAW.ORG
I've got "The Number of the Beast" and "I Will Fear No Evil" in my office right now.
SiaSL and Time Enough for Love are at the top of my list of favourites – though it'll be a few years before my kid get her hands on those...
"The Man Who Travels In Elephants" is another wonderful piece of his, though not exactly sci-fi.
Learning to hitchhike would have been holy
We would all be building spaceships
Government efficiency would be about the same
All would be given a mac for computing
Those driving slow cars would have been shunned.
I'm sure I'm missing a few
I actually know Oberon, and some of the other members of CAW.
They have good intentions, and the Ravenhearts, including the late Morning Glory, are considered elders in the Pagan community around here.
As books to base a faith on, Stranger in a Strange Land is better than many. I've never been to one of their rituals, though I've been to some of their parties.
I've seen stranger beliefs, that's for sure.
Christians believe that the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.
John 14: 6 – "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"
Christians believe that the reward in heaven is far greater than any pain experienced on Earth.
2 Corinthians 4:17 – "For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all."
Christians believe that non-believers are at risk for judgement and Hell.
John 3:36 – "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
Christians are called to love one another, even their enemies.
Mark 12:31 – "The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
If you are a Christian, you are supposed to follow the commandments of God even if it causes you pain. That's what Jesus did on the Cross and, as we are supposed to strive to be like Christ, we are asked to do the same.
To those of you who are condemning Christians for doing good works, while at the same time spreading the Gospel, what do you expect? Any Christian who truly believes in the Bible will feel that those who are not saved are going to Hell. If you are also asked to love your neighbor as yourself, you will definitely not want them to go to Hell. How do you save them from Hell then? You preach the Bible. Christians care about life, but we also care about eternal life. This life is like a mist that is here in the morning and evaporates in the sun. Salvation through Jesus is eternal.
Even if you do not agree with Christians, you should still try to understand their point of view. We care about people, but we believe that your life is short and your afterlife is eternal. Saving your life will give you a few more years on Earth. Saving your soul through Christ will give you an eternity with your creator.
In our eyes it would be like if someone were dying of cancer and they were also on the brink of death because of dehydration. You had both the cure to cancer and a glass of water, but you only gave them the water and withheld the cure that would save their life in the long term.
To a Christian, we are called to help other AND to spread the Gospel. That is our faith and to be down on us is like being down on a Muslim for going to Mecca or being down on a Hindu for practicing Yoga.
So you feel that as long as your beliefs compel you then any action is justified? I presume that means you're OK with forced conversion to christianity, how about forced conversion from christianity?
So I guess that you believe that reducing someone's argument to its most ridiculous form and then attacking that is somehow a good way to argue a point?
Religious beliefs are not a justification for an action, they are the motivation for an action. My desire to convert you to my belief is just as justifiable as your desire to convince me that my beliefs hold no merit.
I am just saying that you should expect evangelism from Christianity. That is a key aspect of our belief. Just like I expect Jewish folks to not eat pork or Alaskan natives to erect totem poles with a bunch of sweet animal faces on them.
Asking a Christian to not evangelize is like asking a doctor not to wash his hands before surgery. Sure we could do it, but we wouldn't be very good if we did.
guide
Rather strange that you would consider your OP as an argument more like a sermon. I know, I know, you can't help yourself, you're a believer, an obnoxious believer.
I guess I just fall into that group of people that believes a certain way and should be treated differently for it then. It would be wrong for you to not lump me in with the entirety of Christianity, and then make the assumption that, because another Christian did something, said something, or believed something, that I somehow am in agreement of it or supporting of it.
I do that all the time. Like when a person of a certain race drives poorly, I just attribute it to them being a part of that race. If someone wearing a turban talks to me, I just assume that they hold animosity towards me. If someone is a believer in Christianity, I just assume that they are another obnoxious believer.
It is probably the best thing we can do. We all fall into various groups. We should all be held accountable for the actions of others in our group.
And I was saying how do feel about being on the receiving end of evangelizing from other religions – it may be extreme but there are many examples of forced conversion to christianity and in the current news examples of forced conversion from christianity. Is it only OK when christians do it?
guide
Good on you. So do you and your fellow Christians want to do the right thing and collect funds for the people that have been scammed by Christian hustlers? Would that not be the moral/Christian thing to do? You could even put pressure on the bling preachers to sell off their luxury homes and toys for the poor, not going to happen is it? Comedy gold.
guide
Thank you for your confession of extreme bigotry.
I wonder how your Jesus character would feel about that.
Santa,
No it is not OK to force someone to convert to Christianity and in fact, it would be impossible to force someone's conversion to Christianity, because Christianity is a personal choice to enter into a relationship with Christ freely. You can't enter freely into that relationship if someone is forcing you to do it. And I am fine with evangelism from other religions, I expect them to do it. They would be bad at their religion if they did not.
Ausphor,
Christians raise money for a lot of causes, including supporting those who were scammed by scam artists. You need money to run a church. Unfortunately, money corrupts people, Christian and non Christian alike.
Here's the thing about Christians: they are sinners too. All people are sinners. Christians just admit to their sin and commit to turn away from it. Christians are trying to be good people just like non-Christians are, but just like non-Christians, Christians falter and make mistakes and do really bad things.
David Killed a dude and slept with his wife. Moses was a murderer. Solomon had like a billion wives. Peter denied Jesus three times. Matthew was a shady tax-collector/thief. Paul killed Christians.
When you guys point out the failures of Christians, you are really just pointing out the failures of people. Christians ARE people after all. We are no better or worse than on Christians. The only difference is that we have admitted that we cannot right our wrongs and that we need Jesus in order to be cleansed in the eyes of God.
And igaftr,
hyperbole mixed with facetiousness. literary devices to prove a point.
I know you know this. You know that I know that you know this. God knows that you know that I know that you know this.
Guidans,
"I do that all the time. Like when a person of a certain race drives poorly, I just attribute it to them being a part of that race. If someone wearing a turban talks to me, I just assume that they hold animosity towards me. If someone is a believer in Christianity, I just assume that they are another obnoxious believer."
Am I to understand that you assume all stereotypes are true, instead of taking each person as an individual?
"I imagine God knows that you know that I know that you know this."
Fixed it for you. You still have never shown your god to be anything but imaginary.
Guidans,
Oh....you were being sarcastic...
Sorry. Carry on.
guided,
"No it is not OK to force someone to convert to Christianity and in fact, it would be impossible to force someone's conversion to Christianity, ..."
Take a look at the history of the Americas and Hawaii among many examples.
If god cared that everyone in the world believed in Jesus then he wouldn't let be born in parts of the world where they will never hear of him. Missionaries are one of the many reasons that I don't believe in the god of the bible.
Joey,
We don't ask why people are not Christians, we just know that we are called to preach to them. If they want to be Christians, then we are happy, if they don't, then we are sad. God is going to make everything work out for those who love Him. We are not here to question God's motivations, just to honor him by striving to do His will.
Jim Jones' followers couldn't have said it better...
LET
Do you think there is a chance of suing Harold Camping to get my stuff back, check around he is probably in hell by now?
Do you want to conduct a Sue-ance? Or I could ask my daughter Hel if he's available... be warned though... she isn't the friendliest goddess...
guide
So why does your lot thank god for saving their earthly lives from a natural disaster? I remember Wolf Blitzer asking a woman that if she thanked god for saving her and her children's lives after a tornado and her replying that she was an atheist, almost caused Wolf to pass out, hilarious. Of course your lot do not really, really believe in an after life or you wouldn't cling so desperately to this one; you would be running into the disaster not away from it. Damn, saved again, I missed going to jesus, sheet.
Ausphor,
Your comment demonstrates an extreme misunderstanding of the Christian world view. I made it clear that we value life on Earth. We just also value eternal life. Remember my analogy about the water and the cancer cure? It would be pretty bad if you cured the person's cancer but then let them die of dehydration.
Christians are called to live on Earth, to love God, to love each other, and to bring people to God. You are not able to effectively do three of the four of those things when you are dead. Clearly, this world serves a function or else God would not have created it. Christians value life immensely, we just value eternal life more.
Now, if you are going to bring up a bunch of dilemmas like, "What if you could make someone a Christian, but you would immediately have to kill them, or you could let them live out their lives as a non-Christian," go for it. Those types of things are like asking if killing one person is morally ok so long as 2 or more people are saved because of it.
guide
Well excuse me but I learned the Christian world view from Francis, fred, scot, Theo, Topher, new-man, et al, so you can understand where I might get confused. It really is amazing how crazy you people come across on this blog, take a bow.
Then there is the Christian world view of Scott Lively. I'm sure he finds comfort that he is saving many from the evils of ho.mose.xuality while he calls people to arms to commit violence in the name of his beliefs. It's a small price to pay – having people thrown in jail and inciting the killing of others, knowing that you are saving scores more from their dastardly deeds. Some Christians don't agree with him, but he is, after all, just evangelizing according to his Christian principles...
Ausphor and Doris,
If you want to learn about Christianity, read the Bible. Don't listen to folks on the belief board of CNN.
And, please, just listen to yourselves. Your argument is basically: Dan, you belong to a group. This other person belongs to the same group. This other person is terrible. Therefore, your group must be terrible and you must be terrible too.
Isn't that a little kind of like stereotyping someone?
If I held you accountable for Richard Dawkins' weird ideas about mol.estation, would that be ok?
No. It would not.
The thing is, there are a lot of crazy people in the world. Some of those crazy people end up being a part of different groups. Then those crazy people act crazy using their group membership as an excuse. with 33% of the world being "Christian," you are going to get some wackos in there. And I am talking about the radicals out there, not the people posting on this forum.
Now, I personally do not know all of the posters you talk about in your posts and I am not even sure if I would agree with them on all of their points; however, if they are Christians, I love them as brothers and if they are not Christians, I love them as neighbors. Behind your posts and my posts and their posts, we are probably just normal guys or girls trying to be good in a world that has a lot of junk going on in it.
guidedans, your Christian book of horrors AKA the bible, that you are recommending such study of, indeed reveals much of the evil and bigotry of the Christian religion, considering passages like the following, from both testaments. Note also the text following the quotes:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
1 Timothy 2:11
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Guide.. you see god missed a good opportunity there.. he could send you back here from the dead to do more work for him... now that would be a clincher for me... and most other atheists as well i would guess... see what a simple idea it is but god never thought about it?
Evolved,
Luke 16:31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."
Religion – the pestilence that mankind can't seem to cure...
LET...that and crabs.
FYI – the relatively new trend of shaving/waxing has severly reduced the transmission of crabs.
I just like to share good news when I can.
Religion..... making bigotry acceptable for thousands of years.
Bigotry has never been acceptable. It has merely been practiced. The reason why bigotry is allowed is not because of religion, it is because of power. Power lets people get away with bigotry. In the past, religion has been a source of power, but it has not been the only one.
If religion vanished, there would still be bigotry.
guidedans,
If bigotry is defined as "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own."
Doesn't that make Jesus a bigot?
"If religion vanished, there would still be bigotry."
This is very true.
However, if there were no religion, people wouldn't be able to rationalize their hatred as being righteous because it is the Holy will of The Creator.
Cheesemaker, if that is your definition of bigotry, then everyone is a bigot.
Do you tolerate the beliefs of serial killers? What about those who believe in the se/xual assault of minors as an entrance into manhood? How about the beliefs of neo-nazis?
Here's another question, what if someone came up to you and told you that 3+3 =7? Would you tolerate their belief? Maybe, but you would probably argue with them to try to correct their incorrect belief. You would also tell them that they are wrong in their belief about 3s and 7s. You would also not want their oppinion taught in schools because it wasn't true.
So, I guess you would not be really tolerant of their beliefs would you. I guess we are all kind of bigots then...
Cheesemaker, if that is your definition of bigotry, then everyone is a bigot.
Do you tolerate the beliefs of serial killers? What about those who believe in the se/xual assault of minors as an entrance into manhood? How about the beliefs of neo-nazis?
Here's another question, what if someone came up to you and told you that 3+3 =7? Would you tolerate their belief? Maybe, but you would probably argue with them to try to correct their incorrect belief. You would also tell them that they are wrong in their belief about 3s and 7s. You would also not want their opinion taught in schools because it wasn't true.
So, I guess you would not be really tolerant of their beliefs would you. I guess we are all kind of bigots then...
Guidedans,
That is the definition I pulled off of dictionary.com.
Disagreement and opposition to something does not make one intolerant. As an example, I do not like what the neo-nazi's stand for and say. But I do think they have a right to their belief and speech.
Cheesemaker, with your differentiation between disagreement and bigotry, Jesus would not be considered a bigot. Jesus loved everyone and embraced them wholeheartedly. He did not agree with them however. If someone believed incorrectly, Jesus rebuked them. He did not take away their rights to believe what they wanted to, He just told them what they needed to do to live rightly. There's a story of a young rich dude who asked Jesus what he needed to do to get to heaven. Jesus told the rich dude what to do, but the dude didn't want to do it. So the dude left. Jesus still loved that guy, He just knew the guy had the wrong motivations. Disagreement, not bigotry.
Really?
Jesus doesn't judge people for having beliefs that contradict his? Jesus tolerates those who do not follow his beliefs? What does Jesus plan to do with anyone who does not "believe" in him?
I may not agree with a person who holds racist views...but I don't think anyone should be punished just for holding those views...
Jesus is all for punishing those who hold views contrary to his.
Jesus/God is not punishing folks for their beliefs. He is punishing them for their sins. Their belief would be the only way for them to avoid their deserved punishment, but their belief would have to be in the saving grace in Jesus and the commitment to following Him. God doesn't punish people for not believing in Jesus. He punishes them for sinning against Him. Belief in Jesus is the pathway to salvation from Hell. It would be like if you were falling out of an airplane and did not have a parachute, then you attributed your death to your lack of parachute, not your fall out of an airplane.
"Their belief would be the only way for them to avoid their deserved punishment"
Why?
Your god is all powerful right? If your god is all powerful Jesus is choosing to reward people for belief and conversely refuses to forgive anyone who doesn't believe. An all powerful god does not HAVE to do anything so your argument is a non sequitor.
It is a total sequitur... You don't even know how sequitur it is.
Jesus is not choosing not to forgive those who don't believe in Him. Those people are rejecting the forgiveness that Jesus gives freely. God can do whatever but He is not going to force you to love Him. I still think that you are confusing concepts here.
There are things that prevent bad events from occurring. I would call these things negative baddies. There are also things that cause bad things to occur. I would call these things positive baddies. There are things that prevent good events from occurring, negative goodies. And finally, there are things that cause good things to occur, positive goodies.
Jesus is both Negative baddie in that He stops the bad of Hell from occurring, and He is a positive Goodie, in that He causes you to go to Heaven. People are the positive baddies in this situation in that they cause themselves, through their sins to require punishment. Sin is also a negative Goodie because it separates us from a good thing, God.
You are saying in your post that Jesus is a positive baddie, and He is causing bad to occur. In the Christian worldview, Jesus is a negative baddie because He stops bad from occurring, when it should have occurred. We are all headed to Hell because of our sin. Jesus offers the opportunity to avoid that fate, but He does not force it on anyone. If you want to pay for your sins yourself, He will let you. You will just be paying them off for a very long time.
I wonder if the people in Iraq, Ukraine, The Netherlands, Liberia or Missouri would accept your positive/negative goodie/baddie theory? Yes, your alleged but never proven gods do work in mysterious ways, ways that strongly suggest your gods only exist in your imagination.
"Those people are rejecting the forgiveness that Jesus gives freely."
No people are not rejecting anything. In order to reject something you have to believe it. Some people don't believe it. That is not rejection...it is just non belief.
And what...Jesus can't forgive without belief...why? Your answer makes no sense.
I can forgive people whether they believe I exist or not...they don't even have to know I forgave them....I guess that means I can do something Jesus can't do....or more my point, won't do.
Jesus forgiving you in that way does no tget you to heaven....there is justice..and Jesus is just..he cannot chnage that..its not based on feelings like you base it on...
"Jesus forgiving you in that way does no tget you to heaven...."
Why? Explain why it matters.
God is a JUSt God..not because he FEELS that way..it is His very nature..he cannot bypass that..otherwise he ceases to be God....
kermit,
That explained nothing. All you did was re-state your premise. What I am asking is what does "belief" have to do with "justice"?
what do you mean by that..are you asking how does my belief in God make case for justice? IM not seeing the relationship youre asking for
kermit,
Do you want to live in a Society that rewards and punishes people based on what they believe and don't believe?
Isn't that creating thought crimes?
Please explain how it is just to punish based soley on belief?
if youre referring to EARTHLY society...no....we are all free to believe what we want (in terms of gods) but if in the spiritual/heavenly soceity..sure..why not? There is only one God...and one way to get to Him......we all sinned, and can do nothing ourselves to escape the eternal separation from God (by that I mean knot knowing His presence, His peace and Hope and Joy He offers) God is Holy..so much so that sin cannot coexist within His presence..it is demolished, along with the person who sinned...its not all based on feelings and egotistical thinking
kemit,
Got it. Punishing people for what they "think" is perfectly acceptable as long as your god does it.
Thought crimes are Okey Dokey....
Your god is the equivalant of a celestial Stalin...
For the record kemit this is why I find Christianity to be lacking any actual morality at it's foundation. "Thoughts" are not "crimes"....and if you think thoughts are crimes I would like you to reasonably justify that with more than "god said it, I believe it". Use your brain for a change.
It is just a wonder to me why you are so much smarter than everyone else. All us sheep running around not thinking critically about anything. I just wonder how the world ever made it this far with so many people being these idiots that can't even think for themselves.
It is a good thing that you are here now any can fix all of the problems that religion caused throughout the eons. You know, like global warming, nuclear proliferation, global pandemics, advent of new, potentially devastating technologies, and everything else.
Once religion is gone, you will be free to advance to the point where you live forever, merge with machines, download your consciousness into a hive-mind, be able to be anywhere at once by sending out drones into the far reaches of the universe, figure out everything, conquer the universe and then exist forever as a enormous, connected, living creature that can do anything, know everything, and be anywhere.
Good luck with that. I will be one of those fools who died from that pestilence you used to talk about.
guide
Now that last post sounds like you are talking to/about yourself? That is a very good start; now burn all your bibles and hymnals and only turn your TV on on Sundays to watch football. Evangelism is as addictive as drugs, put the remote down and back away.
The only thing that will 'fix' mankind is nuclear/asteroid sterilization... unfortunately, beyond that, evolving past the need for religious superstitions and evangelist morons will take much longer than my lifetime...
guidedans, the whole Jesus-sacrifice-salvation story, the foundation of your bizarre Christian supersti-tions, is a steaming pile of bull-do out of the gate. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Hey Bob,
I disagree with your goals. You are attempting to lead people away from their faith and into faith in nothing. I believe that that is an awful goal to have. What do you want for your life and for humanity? You want to learn everything you can? You want to be happy? You want to make the world a better place? Shallow. Those goals are shallow.
In your worldview:
You will die one day and all your knowledge will be worthless to you.
You will die one day and any happy emotion you ever felt will be forgotten and worthless to you.
The world will be engulfed by the sun one day, and no matter how good you made the world, it will meet the same fate. Everyone will die and all of their accomplishments will be worthless to them after they are dead.
In Humanity's best case scenario, humans advance to the point where they live forever, know everything, and can be anywhere they choose. They will be able to do this until the universe runs out of energy and matter decays into nothingness.
That sounds like Hell. Just existing forever until things fall apart. That's where we are heading with our technological advancements. Good luck with that. I am going to fight for God and for Jesus. I believe in the grace described in the Bible. I believe in eternal life with God. You are fighting for eternal life apart from God.
Alias...your comment about the U.N. is undoubtedly accurate. I also don't doubt that it is completely off topic to the discussion I'm having with Kudlak. But, perhaps you can answer the questions I posed to Kudlak–what is a typical Christian missionary organization? How do you derive at that answer?
sorry, that was meant for below.
As far as I know, all of the largest christian denominations send missions around the world. While they do generally try to help the locals, they always give their god credit and attempt to convert people.
So if it is funded by a christina group, it would be a christian missionary. 'Typical' would be difficult to define.
Alias
There is also a tradition among the missions that they be given land to put in a school, hospital or meeting place, read church, as part of the deal. At least in these days the missions ask politely rather than just steal what they want like in the good old days. All you have to do is look around the good old USA to see the vast amount of valuable land that the religions control, tax free of course, not just the Christian cults but all of them. There is an outstanding De Niro movie "The Mission" that is right on point, all Christians should be compelled to view it.
Yes, quite an impact that movie had on me. Fantastic cast also included Jeremy Irons, Liam Neeson & Aidan Quinn.
And of course, one of the best scores ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V8aZLTpKXo
(On Earth As It Is In Heaven – Live – Venice)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6lO-v_H-E8
(Gabriel's Oboe – Live – Assisi)
Doris
Me also. Funny thing is that in my area, Christian churches are closing and schools consolidating while at the same time brand new temples and mosques are being built for better or worse. Who really knows?
Was it heroic or foolish?
If their mission was to help people then indeed it was heroic, but if they went there with hidden missionary agenda of spreading Jesus, then it was absolutely foolish. Only God knows what was on their mind.
Of course. I do believe there is some truth in most all religions, just that I also believe that not all religions are as equally complete in truth to each other.
Meant in reply to Kudalk.
I'm trying to find a context where that would not be hysterically stupid.
I'll consult the IPU and FSM for insight.
Really, you are trying to find context and your not going over to the commenter whose comment I was trying to reply to? Now that's clever.
'you're'
(sorry, couldn't help myself)
"there is some truth in most all religions"
No, there isn't.
Even if you truely believe in one of them you would have to conclude that all the others were wrong. Fo rexample, how many myths about the beginning of the world are compatable?
Nice catch Loki. Yes Alias, just like like I believe that that a classic car that has missing the proper stock interior or even engine that can still be identified as the car of that same general make and model, I also identify that there are truths within all religions it's just that some are more complete than others.
If it's deemed that theft is something that is considered morally wrong and that point is taught in both Christian and Non-Christian religions, then it can be considered a moral truth that is a part of all the applied religions.
And yes I do tend to stutter in my written comments.
kevinite,
What truths? And where they conflict with other religions, how did you determine which was correct?
So if two religions that have totally incompatible philosophies and gods, they both have truth as long as you agree with their stance on stealing. just as long as their priests drive the same cars.
kevin,
I think you would need to show that said morality is unique to religious thought...and it is not
kevinite
If you believe that Francis and scot learned their morals from your book of silly you must understand that we find the bible to be of dubious value, just saying.
Alias
"So if two religions that have totally incompatible philosophies and gods, they both have truth as long as you agree with their stance on stealing. just as long as their priests drive the same cars."
Well yeah. Truth is truth no matter the source from which you retrieve it. The thing is though is that I believe that there is truth in all religions, but that doesn't mean that I believe that all religions are true. That one religion may have more truth than another.
Blessed are the Cheesemakers,
"kevin,
I think you would need to show that said morality is unique to religious thought...and it is not"
What makes you think that I need to show that morality is unique to religious thought, especially when that is not what I believe? I believe that any person of sound mind and is accountable for their actions are naturally given a basic sense of right and wrong, but that not all follow through on those inert senses. That there are influences and choices that can take us away from following through with doing what is right not to mention that inspite that basic sense of morality that I believe there are further truths to build upon that can help us further.
That although some basic morals are found universally, those additional truths I believe that come from God through his specific gospel are as a means for further progression to possible further perfection, happiness, and enlightenment, if one follows through with the teachings of that gospel given by God.
In Santa We Trust
"kevinite,
What truths? And where they conflict with other religions, how did you determine which was correct?"
Where to begin? I guess the thing is that I talking about truths that I only believe are true. I can't provide irrefutable proof to verify my beliefs. I believe that there are certain truths that cannot be made known other than through first-hand experience like knowing what salt tastes like, that can only be done through trying it out for yourself.
To paraphrase from Plato's Republic that to know the good is to do the good, which would be those truths that are built upon the basic foundation of morals that are naturally-given. So, to know whether if the gospel of Jesus Christ is true I believe that one would need to study it, practicing it in our daily lives, and even asking God in prayer about it.
kevin,
The fact that salt exists in the first place is not from personal experience...
kevin you said,
"then it can be considered a moral truth that is a part of all the applied religions."
That is what I was referring to. So what if it is a part of all religions. It is a part of all societies...it is not exclusive to religion, nor did it originate with religion, as you implied.
kevinite – " So, to know whether if the gospel of Jesus Christ is true I believe that one would need to study it,..."
Much of the world's population is illiterate (about 1 billion illiterate adults, according to UNESCO)–rather difficult for them to study the Bible, wouldn't you say?
Cheesy,
I didn't say that all morals originated with religion. You assumed that that was what I implied. Actually I do believe that that all who come into this world of mortality and are of sound mind and and are accountable have a basic sense of morality. The problem is that for one we don't always follow that basic sense of morality and two that there are additional truths to learn that are meant to be applied to that basic sense of morality to gain that perfected state of well being and happiness, and that is where religion comes into play.
Jimmy,
Where do you get that studying has to include reading? Studying also includes listening, asking, discussing, and pondering.
"You assumed that that was what I implied."
kevin...Then explain your comment connecting "moral truths" to religion.
Cheesy,
Did you fully read my last comment here?
I did.
That did not answer my question.
Well cheesy, then it looks like you just don't understand my point.
You are right I don't, and I am asking you to explain it.
You seem to be saying moral truths are assimilated by religion and then religion expands on them. I would like you to explain how that works and how a moral truth is verified to be true by religion.
I believe that religion deals with the application of those morals. Of commiting one's self to following those morals to a higher level than without making any such commitments. Also that religion deals with the reason or purpose of life. That for those who feel that there is more to one's existence than to just go through the motions of life and that there is a greater reason for our efforts and struggles to follow those morals than to just go through life in a civil manner. That following those morals can lead to greater joy and happiness. That religion can help to promote one's own potential; not in a prideful way but still promote one's own potential nonetheless.
"Of commiting one's self to following those morals to a higher level than without making any such commitments."
What do you mean by "higher level"? Can you demonstrate this to be true?
"Also that religion deals with the reason or purpose of life."
Yes, religion makes those claims, so what. Religion tries to impose its version of "purpose" but like everything else claimed by religion it is baseless. You frame these things as "truth" when in reality it is just as subjective as a non religion purpose.
kevinite (Notice I did not refer to you as kevvie). –
"So, to know whether if the gospel of Jesus Christ is true I believe that one would need to study it,... "
"Where do you get that studying has to include reading? "
Well, if you're not able to read something for yourself then you're likely relying on someone else's rendition and interpretation of what they read (or heard from someone else), and I think we all know how many different interpretations there are of what the Bible has to say. I don't really see how that counts as studying something for yourself.
Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctor's without Borders)... helping people in foreign countries since 1971 (no delusional belief in deities or conversion to said deities required)
Of course, to a bible hugger, that means run by Satan.
Good on Catholic Relief Services for providing aid to the needy without holding it hostage pending people's submission to proselytizing efforts. They're in stark contrast with typical Christian missionary organizations, where the actual aid appears to be secondary to the effort to mint new Christians in their likeness (even if they were formally Christians of another variety). In this, these other "charities" more closely resemble McDonald's including free toys in their Happy Meals.
Kudlak...What is a "typical Christian missionary organization"? What do you base your answer upon? Is there a definition someplace? How do you come to the conclusion that typical Christian missionary organizations withhold their charity unless or until the subjects of that charity listen to their message? Do you have examples that render such action "typical"? Is this true of the organizations or is it also true of the missionaries themselves? Or, is it more likely the case that you want to attach some negative message to Christians to satisfy your own hate for them?
In my experience, Catholic Relief Services stands as atypical to other Christian charities, including other Catholic ones. Can you name many other Christian charities which keep their gospel at home?
Interesting that you chose not to answer my questions. O.k. I'll answer yours. Take, for instance, Take Action, Inc. It provides food for school-age children in the Portland area (who would otherwise go hungry over the weekend.) It is run by a Christian couple who feel this is their calling (by God). There are no tracts, no sermons, no contingencies, no obligations...I know because I've volunteered by time and $$ to it. The food is distributed at the schools so you can be certain (especially in PDX) that there is no preaching–its simply about caring for those in need. Your turn.
Should have added...the "Inc." stands for "in the name of Christ"
Maybe someone shouuld look up how much food is distributed by the UN. I doubt they pass out religious propaganda with the humanitarian aid.
workingcopy12
So, your Christian couple are operating a secular charity, right?
We know that all Missionaries have found their "pearl of great price" so they are so wiling to give their all for God..."they are in the world but not of the world" ...it is a fact that through missionary efforts that God's love and plan of salvation has been proclaimed throughout the whole world...so these two current missionaries of ours "Brantly and Writebol" are simply fulfilling God's call for them to "bring the good news up to the ends of the earth". God bless you both and all the other missionaries in every part of the world. God walk with you. Amen. http://.SayitWithGodsWord.com
God's blessings and peace!
Christie Gregor
http://SayitWithGodsWord.com
Very well put. God Bless.
Do you accept then that other religions should spread their "good news" to you and other christians?
virtuesongage..its just a shame that god did not have the same respect for them as they had . They are out there helping others and spreading " the word" and along comes god and allows them to get the Ebola virus. Other humans then have to risk their lives to get these folks help..supplied by humans of course..not god.
A mythological being doesn't tell people they should help one another (though the chemical imbalances in some brains certainly make them think so...).
In my experience, people see others in need and if they are able to help, they do. Regardless of religion (or lack thereof).
It's just a shame that we don't always follow those inert desires to help one another, and as a result there are the calls to repent.
Kevinite you appear to repenting all over the place. how may repents do you get? can you get more?
There were temples caring for the sick in ancient Egypt and various other similar examples from the pre-Christian, pagan world. So, plenty of people were actually inspired by mythological gods to help their fellow man.
At the time, joining the church was the way to help the sick. I suspect it was as much a desire to help others that led them to the religion instead the religion leading them to want to help others.
Not to say they weren't other financial/security reasons to join a churh.
I read somewhere that Christianity owes much of it's early popularity to it's ability to offer displaced rural people and slaves surrogate families and tribes in the cities of Rome. Plenty of modern people seem to gravitate to it for much the same reason these days.
Of course. I do believe there is some truth in most all religions, just that I also believe that not all religions are as equally complete in truth to each other.